There must exist a Hell, for that exists to showcase for all time that God is Holy an Just even in that...
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Perishing without having ever heard the gospel they end up in....
- Thread starter Agent47
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So God has so show off his eternal torture machine to make that point?
Sinners or not, these are people!
It is not ertnally tormountin sense God is rakin them over fire, it exiss to highligh what happens when sinners make their choices!
Then what is it, exactly?
And why is not annhilation also a way to demonstrate how the "soul that sins is that one that will die"?
Moreover, you don't believe there is really a choice, not in a meaningful sense. If you are born only capable of sinning, are not elect, are not regenerated and then saved, and then subsequently make a "choice" to reject God when you lacked the ability to otherwise.....
How is that a choice?
This is where I really appreciate the hyper-Calvinists.
Nonsense. Why don't you volunteer to burn in hell forever to 'showcase for all time that God is holy'?
Choices that were permissively decreed and rendered certain!
Ever prson who goes to Hell choose to go there, as they rejected to save them!
I instead am thankful for God saved me, and that I can be used by Him to reach out to others!
1. God is Omniscient
a. God knew that Creation would fall (men would sin and death would enter the world).
b. God knew before Creation that it would culminate in a recreation as all is made new.
c. God knew before Creation his plan of redemption and reconciliation - the Cross.
d. God knew before Creation who would believe and be saved.
e. God knew before Creation who would not believe and instead remain condemned/under judgment.
2. God is Creator
a. God, knowing all Creation would entail, willing spoke the universe into being.
b. God, knowing that all men would sin, willingly created men with the freedom to choose.
c. God, knowing his plan of redemption from eternity past, works all things to that end.
3. God is Sovereign
a. God's purposes will prevail (Prov. 19:21)
b. God's purposes are eternal (Eph. 3:9-13)
c. God's purposes, beyond his revelation, are unknowable (Job 36:26)
d. God's purposes are providential (Lamentations 3:37)
There are logical positions (only the first affirms all of the above presuppositions):
1. God knew who would be saved and who would not be saved (regardless of divine predestination) before the foundation of the earth. Nothing occurs in a manner that was unknown by God before Creation. God knew before speaking Creation into being that Adam would sin, the Holocaust would occur, the World Trade Center would be attacked. But knowing that Creation would result with these things, God was still freely created the world with man in it.
And when God spoke Creation into being, knowing what would become of Creation - from beginning (Creation to God walking with man in the Garden), through the middle (the Fall to the Second Advent), and to the end (God dwelling with man in a new creation) - God said that it good, in accord with his plan. All things are predestined and predetermined - if not by divine causation, at least by God willingly and freely creating a world that would unfold exactly as he knew it would.
2. God created everything, and God knows the end to which he created, but God does not know contingent events. God does not know who will believe and who will not believe. But God is omnipotent, and God knows the heart of man (the nature of man). God reacts to what occurs in time and works them to accomplish his purposes.
The two logical possibilities are an omniscient God who knows all and a God who learns with the progression of time and human events.
So, of my list above, in the three categories which do you deny?
the certainity came about due to the rejecting Jesus to save thm!
One is biblical, and the other one is heresy, open Theism!
They had no choice in being born. They had no choice in having a sin nature that inevitably resulted in their condemnation, and they lacked the ability to choose to accept Christ because it went against their nature and God didn't elect them and make it possible.
How in the universe is that a real choice?
It is as much of a choice as it is a choice to be born.
But if you're a Calvinist, this isn't true. Jesus didn't die to save them at all.
Think this would be God response to you....
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 9:15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”29 9:16 So then,30 it does not depend on human desire or exertion,31 but on God who shows mercy. 9:17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh:32 “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may demonstrate my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.”33 9:18 So then,34 God35 has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden.36
9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?” 9:20 But who indeed are you – a mere human being37 – to talk back to God?38 Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?”39 9:21 Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay40 one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use?41 9:22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects42 of wrath43 prepared for destruction?44 9:23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects45 of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory – 9:24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 9:25 As he also says in Hosea:
“I will call those who were not my people, ‘My people,’ and I will call her who was unloved,46 ‘My beloved.’”47
9:26 “And in the very place48 where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”49
9:27 And Isaiah cries out on behalf of Israel, “Though the number of the children50 of Israel are as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved, 9:28 for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth completely and quickly.”51 9:29 Just52 as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of armies53 had not left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
and we would have resembled Gomorrah.”54
Net Bible Romans 9:14-29
Jesus death was sufficient to have saved them if they would have chosen to receive him!
And that response is dodging the question.
If you want to use the response, go ahead, but at least be consistent enough to say that "Because God wanted it" is the real, underlying response, not "they chose it."
Which was impossible.
Your response is equivalent to saying that there's sufficient oxygen to breathe to a person who was designed to have no lungs.
The ultimate truth is that God is sovereign, free to save whom he wills, and that none lost is do to Him, but their own rejection of Christ!
No, it would be a direct result of his actions.
God dtermined that rejection of Jesus puts them into Hell, but they still chose to do that!
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