Here are some questions for you reformed folks. How do you absolutely know for a certain fact you will persevere to the end of your life?
First, let me say that "perseverance of the saints" by mere wording alone lends itself to many assumptions as to what it must mean, not what the doctrine truly means.
So I ask, what do you mean by persevere, Winman? Your thinking here and definition is paramount to giving a proper response.
It seems to me that the only way you could be absolutely sure you will persevere is to know for an absolute certainty you are elect.
I hear what you're saying. Again, please define perseverance. Is it something we do;
(read Bibles, pray, go to church, witness, walk holy, stay away from a fall into sin) or is it something else, and if it is please define this.
Basically you are saying we cannot know until the day we go home with the Lord since you say this:
But the only absolutely certain way to know you are elect is if you persevere.
Our salvation, does it depend upon what we do,
or; upon your definition of persevere (which I am not aware of what yours is),
or; do we rest solely upon the work of Christ all of our days since trusting Him, and believe that He saved us? If it is the latter, then there is nothing to discuss other than
"...for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him until that day." 2 Timothy 1:12. Christ is doing the saving, not any perseverance on our part whatsoever. It's all Him;
He saved us, He is saving us, He will save us. But His will believe until the end, it is the fruit of a truly regenerate person, the outcome of being born-again.
Many reformed scholars freely admit that many who have professed to be elect have fallen away and failed to persevere. So, professing you are elect is no guarantee that you actually are.
OK. Can you give some documented examples of this since you are using this as a proof to your cause in this debate? I don't think we can have a fair debate without documentation to back up our statements. If there are many who have said this, then give at least two examples. By the way, I have never read nor seen this in my life. The way this is worded lends itself toward a works based salvation, which no reformed theology accepts. You are correct, though, that professing we are elect is no guarantee,
but this is a given and doesn't serve your purpose as it is purely hypothetical.
But, when we judge one who formerly professed faith (and that such imply being then elect to follow your argument) when are we able to make a proper judgment upon their standing (to determine whether they were ever or never elect) other than in this fact that the Scriptures lend themselves judgment to do so towards those
apostatizing from the Gospel, that is, rejecting the Gospel and its message once for all, something to which they formerly professed themselves yet now deny? 1 John 2:19 gives us cause, as does Hebrews 6, of those who've apostatized, thus we can make a cautious verdict in some cases, but these are not simply those who have fallen into sin, but have abandoned the hope of the Gospel.
So, how do you know for certain you will persevere unless you know you are elect, and how do you know you are elect if you cannot be absolutely sure you will persevere?
Because we have believed in Him and what He has said. Look at John 10:27-28, Ephesians 2, 1 John 5:13, John 5:24, 1 John 3:14.
Now there are tests to see whether or not we have passed from death to life, as 1 John clearly gives us.
There are also some fearful passages such as Hebrews 6 &c. But if we carefully look at falling away, and see that it means to cast off Christ and the hope of the Gospel, to which Colossians 1:23 warns us to not do, and revert to another Gospel, or no other Gospel, perhaps only going to total unbelief, these have never been saved in the first place, they are apostates or have apostatized. To apply this to all of us, when we see that perseverance means faith to the end, not necessary "faithfulness" then we see how we should be cautious, we should make certain we are saved and have believed, that we are bearing the fruit of a regenerated soul, and that we trust in Him to save us alone, being thankful to Him for His work.
