Perserverance

[annsni]

John wrote in his first letter, "This is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith."

I would equate overcoming with persevering, and the scriptures guarantee that a believer will overcome.

And although election and salvation are two different things, I reject the idea that one is possible without the other. The elect will be saved. The saved are the elect.

I also reject the idea that persevering is necessary for our salvation. This is analagous to the proposition that good works do not save, but the saved will do good works. Persevering does not saved, but the saved persevere.

Now, I may be the only one on this board who has failed my Lord. I confess that I have been disobedient. I have disappointed Him many times (the latest just today).

But after beating up on me (which tells me I am his child), he has been faithful and just to forgive. I, like Winman, am resting in his promises. I am resting in Jesus assertion that no one can snatch his sheep out of his hand; I am resting on the promise that He is able to keep that which i have committed to him.

If perfect perseverance is required, I'm a dead man. If I die and go to Hell, I will go trusting my Lord Christ for salvation.

If this is inconsistent with Calvinism, then so be it.

Amen Tom. :thumbsup:

 

[David Lamb]

I agree with Ann and my assurance is based on many promises in God's word.

But that is not the reformed position, in fact, many reformed would call my position "easy believeism"

I am not persevering, I am not enduring, I am resting.

Again, this is not the reformed position, and I am sure you know that. The reformed position offers no assurance unless one either presumes they are elect, or else bases assurance on works and persevering in those works.

If you are consistent in reformed theology you cannot possibly know you are elect unless you persevere until the day you die.

I know quite a number of Christians of the Reformed persuasion, as I am myself, and I must say that I have never seen or heard any with your take on that position. Like you, we are resting - resting on the finished work of Christ at Calvary. We don't go around boasting, "Look at me! I'm elect!" Rather, our testimony (well, mine, anyway - I shouldn't presume to speak for others) is, "Look at what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for me!"

When someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, that shows they are elect. Perhaps it would help, and save any further confusion, if you could say briefly what you believe election to be. Possibly you ascribe a different meaning to it than I do. (I'm sure there's something ungrammatical in that last sentence, but I hope you get my meaning).

 

[annsni]

I know quite a number of Christians of the Reformed persuasion, as I am myself, and I must say that I have never seen or heard any with your take on that position. Like you, we are resting - resting on the finished work of Christ at Calvary. We don't go around boasting, "Look at me! I'm elect!" Rather, our testimony (well, mine, anyway - I shouldn't presume to speak for others) is, "Look at what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for me!"

When someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, that shows they are elect. Perhaps it would help, and save any further confusion, if you could say briefly what you believe election to be. Possibly you ascribe a different meaning to it than I do. (I'm sure there's something ungrammatical in that last sentence, but I hope you get my meaning).

I agree with David. I know I'm elect because I'm saved. I am indwelt with the Holy Spirit and that shows that I'm elect AND that I'm saved.

 

[Robert Snow]

Well, note that is before Christ. If my heart is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, how can it be desperately wicked?

You have a lot to learn if you don't think Christians can fall back into sin. I pray your arrogance doesn't cause wind up where you think you couldn't possibly be:

Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

 

[glfredrick]

Winman I'd echo the above. I would go further to say that there are many examples.

There are some who are saved and aren't assured
Some are saved and are sure
Some are not saved and think they are saved
Some are not saved and know they are not
-R.C. Sproul

The truth is either we are or we aren't saved.

It all depends, ultimately it is the relationship with God that we have that testifies within us and His Spirit also. I cannot explain to someone how I know within myself that I am saved, but I do. I know that my heart is decieving above all things, and for that I trust God all the more. There have been times I have questioned my salvation, yet, I went to God for help. All of my life is in God's hands and He sovereignly keeps me. My security is built in God's work. I also was blind, and He gave me eyes, and I have become blinded over and over again only to see Him lift me above my blindness (Ps 38-39)

The interesting thing about assurance is that it is between us and God alone. I really don't say, "we will wait and see if I persevere." That is looking at my performance. The Christian life isnt about performance at all. Although that is a fruit of a heart that is filled with the Spirit.

Where does sanctification fall into your black and white theology of saved or not saved?

 

[annsni]

You have a lot to learn if you don't think Christians can fall back into sin. I pray your arrogance doesn't cause wind up where you think you couldn't possibly be:

Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Where did I say that we can't fall back into sin? I never said that. However, we are new creations - we are no longer "desperately wicked" but instead are now cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. We are indwelt with the Spirit of God. We are very different than when we were unsaved.

 

[drfuss]

Here are some questions for you reformed folks.

How do you absolutely know for a certain fact you will persevere to the end of your life?

It seems to me that the only way you could be absolutely sure you will persevere is to know for an absolute certainty you are elect.

But the only absolutely certain way to know you are elect is if you persevere.

Many reformed scholars freely admit that many who have professed to be elect have fallen away and failed to persevere. So, professing you are elect is no guarantee that you actually are.

So, how do you know for certain you will persevere unless you know you are elect, and how do you know you are elect if you cannot be absolutely sure you will persevere?

You have asked a very good question. However, that same type of question can be asked of other beliefs concerning the security of the believer.

For the Calvinists, how do you know that you are a part of the elect and will perserve to the end?

For the Non-Calvinist Eternal Security Believer, how do you know that you are not really a true Christian now, who only thinks he is a true Christian? If you stop trusting Christ in the future, you are not a true Christian now; you just think you are.

For the Classic Arminian, you are a True Christian now, but how do you know that you will not stop trusting Christ in the future and forfeit your salvation?

For the Wesleyan Arminian, you are a true Christian now, but how do you know that you will not in the future, resist, over a long period of time, the dealings of the Holy Spirit about sin in your life and not acknowledge and repent of those sins you are convicted of; thereby losing your salvation?

Of course the answer in each of these four beliefs is faith in Christ's saving and keeping power.

It is interesting how Christians can see the uncertainty in other beliefs, and not recognize the same type of uncertainty in their own belief.

No debate intended.

 

[Robert Snow]

Where did I say that we can't fall back into sin?

I based this comment on your statement:

I know because the Bible tells me that I have salvation - eternal life. I know that my heart is not my own and there is NO way I could ever EVER turn my back on God. It's just as much of an impossibility as me killing one of my children. It would never happen.

I never said that. However, we are new creations - we are no longer "desperately wicked" but instead are now cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. We are indwelt with the Spirit of God. We are very different than when we were unsaved.

I agree completely with this! :thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

I know because the Bible tells me that I have salvation - eternal life. I know that my heart is not my own and there is NO way I could ever EVER turn my back on God. It's just as much of an impossibility as me killing one of my children. It would never happen.

1 John 5 tells us "Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him."

That logic sounds good, but it is the same logic that every person ever claiming salvation can point to even those who fall away. In other words to say i know I am saved because i know am saved is not knowing since many who have professed knowing fall away. There is a way to know from the bible but not because someone says the bible says I am saved or because they say i am saved. There is a test.

 

[Winman]

You have asked a very good question. However, that same type of question can be asked of other beliefs concerning the security of the believer.
For the Non-Calvinist Eternal Security Believer, how do you know that you are not really a true Christian now, who only thinks he is a true Christian? If you stop trusting Christ in the future, you are not a true Christian now; you just think you are.
It is interesting how Christians can see the uncertainty in other beliefs, and not recognize the same type of uncertainty in their own belief.
No debate intended.

IMHO, both Cals/DoGs and Arminians have a faulty view of faith. The scriptures show that believeing on Jesus and being given everlasting life is a once and for all event.
Luke 7:48-50 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
This woman's sins weren't forgiven for one day, they were forgiven once and for all.
In John 5:24 Jesus said he that believes on him has passed from death to life.
The moment a person trusts Jesus they pass from death to life, they have everlasting life NOW. There is nothing to persevere or endure, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit forever.
What was the seal of Abraham's righteousness imputed to him? Circumcision. Can that be undone?

 

[drfuss]

IMHO, both Cals/DoGs and Arminians have a faulty view of faith. The scriptures show that believeing on Jesus and being given everlasting life is a once and for all event.
Luke 7:48-50 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
This woman's sins weren't forgiven for one day, they were forgiven once and for all.
In John 5:24 Jesus said he that believes on him has passed from death to life.
The moment a person trusts Jesus they pass from death to life, they have everlasting life NOW. There is nothing to persevere or endure, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit forever.
What was the seal of Abraham's righteousness imputed to him? Circumcision. Can that be undone?

As I said before, "It is interesting how Christians can see the uncertainty in other beliefs, and not recognize the same type of uncertainty in their own belief."

 

[Old Union Brother]

As I said before, "It is interesting how Christians can see the uncertainty in other beliefs, and not recognize the same type of uncertainty in their own belief."

As our Savior said

(Luk 6:41) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[preacher4truth]

First, let me say that "perseverance of the saints" by mere wording alone lends itself to many assumptions as to what it must mean, not what the doctrine truly means.

So I ask, what do you mean by persevere, Winman? Your thinking here and definition is paramount to giving a proper response.



I hear what you're saying. Again, please define perseverance. Is it something we do; (read Bibles, pray, go to church, witness, walk holy, stay away from a fall into sin) or is it something else, and if it is please define this.

Basically you are saying we cannot know until the day we go home with the Lord since you say this:



Our salvation, does it depend upon what we do, or; upon your definition of persevere (which I am not aware of what yours is), or; do we rest solely upon the work of Christ all of our days since trusting Him, and believe that He saved us? If it is the latter, then there is nothing to discuss other than "...for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him until that day." 2 Timothy 1:12. Christ is doing the saving, not any perseverance on our part whatsoever. It's all Him; He saved us, He is saving us, He will save us. But His will believe until the end, it is the fruit of a truly regenerate person, the outcome of being born-again.



OK. Can you give some documented examples of this since you are using this as a proof to your cause in this debate? I don't think we can have a fair debate without documentation to back up our statements. If there are many who have said this, then give at least two examples. By the way, I have never read nor seen this in my life. The way this is worded lends itself toward a works based salvation, which no reformed theology accepts. You are correct, though, that professing we are elect is no guarantee, but this is a given and doesn't serve your purpose as it is purely hypothetical.

But, when we judge one who formerly professed faith (and that such imply being then elect to follow your argument) when are we able to make a proper judgment upon their standing (to determine whether they were ever or never elect) other than in this fact that the Scriptures lend themselves judgment to do so towards those apostatizing from the Gospel, that is, rejecting the Gospel and its message once for all, something to which they formerly professed themselves yet now deny? 1 John 2:19 gives us cause, as does Hebrews 6, of those who've apostatized, thus we can make a cautious verdict in some cases, but these are not simply those who have fallen into sin, but have abandoned the hope of the Gospel.



Because we have believed in Him and what He has said. Look at John 10:27-28, Ephesians 2, 1 John 5:13, John 5:24, 1 John 3:14.

Now there are tests to see whether or not we have passed from death to life, as 1 John clearly gives us.

There are also some fearful passages such as Hebrews 6 &c. But if we carefully look at falling away, and see that it means to cast off Christ and the hope of the Gospel, to which Colossians 1:23 warns us to not do, and revert to another Gospel, or no other Gospel, perhaps only going to total unbelief, these have never been saved in the first place, they are apostates or have apostatized. To apply this to all of us, when we see that perseverance means faith to the end, not necessary "faithfulness" then we see how we should be cautious, we should make certain we are saved and have believed, that we are bearing the fruit of a regenerated soul, and that we trust in Him to save us alone, being thankful to Him for His work.

Im still waiting Winman. Answer.

 

[Winman]

Your request is ridiculous, Perseverance of the Saints is your doctrine, not mine. You should explain it to me, not the other way around.

The simple and commonly accepted definition of persevere is to persist.

Ok, what does that mean? What do you believe a person must persist in to be saved?

So, you explain this doctrine to me.

 

[preacher4truth]

Your request is ridiculous, Perseverance of the Saints is your doctrine, not mine. You should explain it to me, not the other way around. The simple and commonly accepted definition of persevere is to persist. Ok, what does that mean? What do you believe a person must persist in to be saved? So, you explain this doctrine to me.

Yep. You can't answer so you resort to insolence. When you bring up perseverance of the saints, or any other doctrine, you need to be able to know what you are talking about before you go slamming it. What do the Scriptures say about slamming something you don't understand?


When you can't answer, which by the way is nearly always, you run, as you are doing now.

Why do you delve into and mock things and doctrines you clearly do not understand?

I am happy to know that you cannot answer me. It's too difficult for you to do so.

Keep your tail tucked.

Good bye, winman!

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

Yep. You can't answer so you resort to insolence. When you bring up perseverance of the saints, or any other doctrine, you need to be able to know what you are talking about before you go slamming it. What do the Scriptures say about slamming something you don't understand?


When you can't answer, which by the way is nearly always, you run, as you are doing now.

Why do you delve into and mock things and doctrines you clearly do not understand?

I am happy to know that you cannot answer me. It's too difficult for you to do so.

Keep your tail tucked.

Good bye, winman!

:smilewinkgrin:

No, I can explain it as well as any, but you will immediately say I misrepresent your doctrine, Calvinism's favorite objection. Trying to nail you guys down is like trying to pin a tail on a wisp of smoke.

And I notice you conveniently forgot to explain how you define perseverance, a word that occurs only once in scripture and pertains to praying for fellow saints.

I would say it means to persist in faith, this faith being demonstrated by good works and turning from sin. I have seen enough comments from Calvinists here to safely assume this is a general explanation.

I have never seen it explained just how good you have to be, or how one determines when one has sinned enough to be deemed fallen from the faith.

So, don't give me this stuff about not understanding your doctrine, I have been debating you guys a long time and understand you far better than you give me credit for.

 

[jbh28]

No, I can explain it as well as any, but you will immediately say I misrepresent your doctrine, Calvinism's favorite objection. Trying to nail you guys down is like trying to pin a tail on a wisp of smoke.

And I notice you conveniently forgot to explain how you define perseverance, a word that occurs only once in scripture and pertains to praying for fellow saints.

I would say it means to persist in faith, this faith being demonstrated by good works and turning from sin. I have seen enough comments from Calvinists here to safely assume this is a general explanation.

I have never seen it explained just how good you have to be, or how one determines when one has sinned enough to be deemed fallen from the faith.

So, don't give me this stuff about not understanding your doctrine, I have been debating you guys a long time and understand you far better than you give me credit for.

Again, you are talking about the Arminian doctrine, not the Calvinist doctrine. If you have been debating for a long time, then why do you continue to misrepresent.

No Calvinists believes you can fall from faith. Arminians believe that you can. Yes, we keep the faith. And faith is shown by good works, not kept by good works. If you don't like us telling you that you are misrepresenting us, then stop misrepresenting us.

Calvinism - Believers will persevere in salvation because God will see to it that none will be lost. Believers are secure in the faith because God will finish the work he began.
- from about.com

Noticed the "because" statements. It's not dependent on us persevering, but God doing the work. We persevere because God preserves us.

 

[zrs6v4]

Where does sanctification fall into your black and white theology of saved or not saved?

My point in that was to show that there are people who think they are saved but are not because of their depravity. When we are saved we are set apart and are continually being set-apart. Im not sure what you were meaning when you asked the question to be honest?

 

[Winman]

Again, you are talking about the Arminian doctrine, not the Calvinist doctrine. If you have been debating for a long time, then why do you continue to misrepresent.

No Calvinists believes you can fall from faith. Arminians believe that you can. Yes, we keep the faith. And faith is shown by good works, not kept by good works. If you don't like us telling you that you are misrepresenting us, then stop misrepresenting us.

Calvinism - Believers will persevere in salvation because God will see to it that none will be lost. Believers are secure in the faith because God will finish the work he began.
- from about.com

Noticed the "because" statements. It's not dependent on us persevering, but God doing the work. We persevere because God preserves us.

I understand that, and if you go back a few posts you will see I said that.

And I agree 100% with Calvinists that a truly elect person will persevere till the end.

That is not the question. The question is how a Calvinist can have complete assurance they are truly elect? Simply professing that you are elect is no proof as Calvinists themselves freely admit that some who profess to be elect fall away.

A Calvinist has a threat to assurance that non Calvinists do not. A Calvinist believes that God has no intention of saving many people, indeed the vast majority of persons. A Calvinist cannot be absolutely sure they are elect when there is a real possibility God does not love them, indeed he may hate them.

Knowing this, their only hope is to persevere, whatever that means. If they do not persevere they know they are not elect, but even doing so they cannot be sure.

 

[jbh28]

I understand that, and if you go back a few posts you will see I said that.

And I agree 100% with Calvinists that a truly elect person will persevere till the end.

Good

That is not the question. The question is how a Calvinist can have complete assurance they are truly elect? Simply professing that you are elect is no proof as Calvinists themselves freely admit that some who profess to be elect fall away.

A Calvinist has a threat to assurance that non Calvinists do not. A Calvinist believes that God has no intention of saving many people, indeed the vast majority of persons. A Calvinist cannot be absolutely sure they are elect when there is a real possibility God does not love them, indeed he may hate them.

Knowing this, their only hope is to persevere, whatever that means. If they do not persevere they know they are not elect, but even doing so they cannot be sure.

We put our trust in God for our salvation. How do you, Winman, know that you are saved? It's the same way as we do. We have full assurance of our salvation because of what Christ has done for us. We believe in Jesus Christ. As you said you agreed with, we will persevere because of God. How do you know you are elect? Because we are saved. Remember Christ's words in John 6 that, "All that the Father gives me will come to me" The elect are the ones that come to Jesus. Those that are elect will come", and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

I trust in God, not my "free will" for my salvation and the keeping of my salvation. Arminians depend on their free will to keep their salvation.