Perspective

[Jordan Kurecki]

Uh, no. It is because they are sinners, and the wages of sin is death.

While yes that is true, however the fact that they do reject God is what keeps them from getting forgiveness and salvation.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

While yes that is true, however the fact that they do reject God is what keeps them from getting forgiveness and salvation.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Let me put it this way, it is the rejection of God that keeps man under the condemnation from their sin.

 

[FrigidDev]

I don't believe that anyone passes from here to judgment without encountering the Gospel.

So, I'm curious, FrigidDev, are you a Christian? Do you attend a local church?

Yes. I got to Tucson Baptist Church. Look us up.

1. God wants all men to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2. Mankind reveals himself to men in 3 main ways

A. General Revelation

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Simply put, God reveals himself to mankind through creation, the creation around us testifies to the existence of a supreme being.

B. Revelation of Conscience

Romans 1:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

God reveals his righteous character through man's conscience, all people know murder is wrong, rape is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc.

C. Revelation of the Scripture and the Gospel

15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

So from this we can get an answer to your question:

God wants all men to be saved, he does not want any to die and go to hell, God must reveal himself to mankind through creation and conscience first, if a man will respond to this revelation, then God will reveal the Gospel message from the bible to them, and if they accept this and believe it, then they will be saved.
HOWEVER, if a person refuses to respond to the revelation of creation, For example they refuse to believe in any kind of God (Atheism), then God is under no obligation to allow them to hear the Gospel message, or if they refuse to listen that voice in their conscience telling them there is a God who they will be accountable to, then he is not obligated to allow them to hear the Gospel.

Basically if someone dies without hearing the Gospel message, it's because God knew they would not accept the message anyway.

Think about it this way, If you were a teacher and your students refused to allow you to teach them addition or subtraction, your not going to waste your time trying to teach them how to do algebra.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Explain to me if someone has never heard the name Jesus, how they become saved? Sure, God makes himself visible through nature. But African tribes have their gods that they believe created the world. The path to salvation is very specific, people being "aware" that God exists, doesn't mean that they will believe that Jesus is the son of God, came to earth, died for our sins, and rose again. That's the only way you can be saved, not just being aware of "some higher power".

 

[Internet Theologian]

Let me put it this way, it is the rejection of God that keeps man under the condemnation from their sin.

Nope. Man is already under condemnation prior to any rejection of God. Their being lost in sin is what keeps them there, not rejection of God.

 

[Baptist Believer]

You know these so called threats of hell actually happen so few times the whole idea is insignificant.

Depending upon where you live, it may happen more than you might expect. There used to be a church that put large crowds of its evangelists on the streets of downtown Fort Worth every Friday night to "evangelize." One of their standard tactics was to point at people and scream, "You're going to burn in hell," to those waiting to buy tickets at the movie theater. Their message indicated that the threat of hell was for going to see a movie, as well as general assumed evil (since no faithful Christian would be in line for a movie).

The church was named Kingdom Baptist Church out of the community of Venus, Texas. We even had one or two of their members on this site for awhile until they go banned. Apparently, the pastor and church decided to leave Fort Worth for the Ozarks of Missouri and have renamed themselves Long Run Baptist Church.

So, longer story than intended, many residents of Fort Worth have frequently had threats of hell cast at them, and it wasn't a rare experience. I hope the rest of you are more fortunate.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Yes. I got to Tucson Baptist Church. Look us up.




John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Explain to me if someone has never heard the name Jesus, how they become saved? Sure, God makes himself visible through nature. But African tribes have their gods that they believe created the world. The path to salvation is very specific, people being "aware" that God exists, doesn't mean that they will believe that Jesus is the son of God, came to earth, died for our sins, and rose again. That's the only way you can be saved, not just being aware of "some higher power".

Do you think God is obligated to allow people to hear about Jesus Christ if God knows they won't accept it anyway?

Your missing the point, the point is that God is all knowing, and if there is someone out there in some far away land who WOULD accept Jesus Christ, God WILL send a missionary or someone to them.

If God wants all men to be saved and is not willing that any should come to repentance, you can rest assured that God will send someone to them if he knows they can be saved.

This is only a problem if you don't believe that God knows everything and is all powerful.

 

[Revmitchell]

Depending upon where you live, it may happen more than you might expect. There used to be a church that put large crowds of its evangelists on the streets of downtown Fort Worth every Friday night to "evangelize." One of their standard tactics was to point at people and scream, "You're going to burn in hell," to those waiting to buy tickets at the movie theater. Their message indicated that the threat of hell was for going to see a movie, as well as general assumed evil (since no faithful Christian would be in line for a movie).

The church was named Kingdom Baptist Church out of the community of Venus, Texas. We even had one or two of their members on this site for awhile until they go banned. Apparently, the pastor and church decided to leave Fort Worth for the Ozarks of Missouri and have renamed themselves Long Run Baptist Church.

So, longer story than intended, many residents of Fort Worth have frequently had threats of hell cast at them, and it wasn't a rare experience. I hope the rest of you are more fortunate.

So members of one single church? Sounds rare to me.

 

[Baptist Believer]

So members of one single church? Sounds rare to me.

Valid point about the quantity of people engaging in that action. However, my point still stands that a small group of people can have an outsized influence through the sheer amount of effort with which they engaged the public.

It actually comes up frequently with atheists I speak with on a normal basis. It is not a vague charge, but a specific experience. I have to explain the beliefs of the defunct Venus Baptist Church and why they may have done what they did. FWIW, they taught millennial exclusion, where Christians went to hell for sins like going to the movies, until they were finally punished enough that they might be made worthy. It was a fundamentalist purgatory scheme.

Most people I know encountered those folks and were condemned. It's a relief that they have fled Texas.

 

[Revmitchell]

Valid point about the quantity of people engaging in that action. However, my point still stands that a small group of people can have an outsized influence through the sheer amount of effort with which they engaged the public.

It actually comes up frequently with atheists I speak with on a normal basis. It is not a vague charge, but a specific experience. I have to explain the beliefs of the defunct Venus Baptist Church and why they may have done what they did. FWIW, they taught millennial exclusion, where Christians went to hell for sins like going to the movies, until they were finally punished enough that they might be made worthy. It was a fundamentalist purgatory scheme.

Most people I know encountered those folks and were condemned. It's a relief that they have fled Texas.

I am sure they ca. Such behavior is stupid and hateful and does nothing to represent God. In fact it is in line with (though not as extreme) as the attitude of extremists Muslims.

However, rare as it is, it is not a noteworthy discussion.

 

[Don]

With all do respect Don, but if you were to tell me when I was a unsaved individual that I deserve hell, I would laugh. And if I saw a misguided numb numb with a sign on a street corner proclaiming that, Id be looking on the ground for rabbits. Laugh

If you'll re-read what I wrote, and then compare that to FrigidDev's responses, you'll figure out what I was fishing for.

 

[FrigidDev]

Do you think God is obligated to allow people to hear about Jesus Christ if God knows they won't accept it anyway?

Your missing the point, the point is that God is all knowing, and if there is someone out there in some far away land who WOULD accept Jesus Christ, God WILL send a missionary or someone to them.

If God wants all men to be saved and is not willing that any should come to repentance, you can rest assured that God will send someone to them if he knows they can be saved.

This is only a problem if you don't believe that God knows everything and is all powerful.

Where in the Bible do you find that?

Would you have me believe that for thousands of years(before boats were made[when people thought that the entire world was already discovered]), on those remote islands which had NEVER had ANY contact with the outside world, for generation after generation after generation after generation after generation that the entire population of these remote islands would all unanimously reject Christ? You really believe that? Really? REALLY? That infuriates me.

 

[Iconoclast]

Where in the Bible do you find that?

Would you have me believe that for thousands of years(before boats were made[when people thought that the entire world was already discovered]), on those remote islands which had NEVER had ANY contact with the outside world, for generation after generation after generation after generation after generation that the entire population of these remote islands would all unanimously reject Christ? You really believe that? Really? REALLY? That infuriates me.

They perished in their sins.....

 

[JonC]

You really believe that? Really? REALLY? That infuriates me.

I am not accusing you of this issue, brother, but I have noticed that many people determine what is true and false based on what infuriates them. Jefferson did this when he made his own bible (Jefferson's bible ends at the tomb). Our feelings and preferences can never be the determining factor in biblical interpretation.

 

[FrigidDev]

They perished in their sins.....

Yes that is my point. JonC δοῦλος somehow thinks that they would all collectively reject Christ. When in reality they simply never had a choice.

I am not accusing you of this issue, brother, but I have noticed that many people determine what is true and false based on what infuriates them. Jefferson did this when he made his own bible (Jefferson's bible ends at the tomb). Our feelings and preferences can never be the determining factor in biblical interpretation.

Ok. So what? Are you going to actually address the post, or just focus on the last 3 words of it?

 

[JonC]

Yes that is my point. JonC δοῦλος somehow thinks that they would all collectively reject Christ. When in reality they simply never had a choice.


Ok. So what? Are you going to actually address the post, or just focus on the last 3 words of it?

I have addressed the post. We should not base what is true and false based on our "feelings." How many ways does Scripture state men can be saved? How about those who have never heard, what does the Bible say regarding their condemnation?

It is not contact with the world or men that saves.

 

[FrigidDev]

I have addressed the post. We should not base what is true and false based on our "feelings." How many ways does Scripture state men can be saved? How about those who have never heard, what does the Bible say regarding their condemnation?

It is not contact with the world or men that saves.

I'm not basing this on my feelings.

Simple. If they have never heard the gospel, they will not be saved.

Can you respond to that?

 

[JonC]

I'm not basing this on my feelings.

Simple. If they have never heard the gospel, they will not be saved.

Can you respond to that?

I'm trying to see what you find so infuriating. Is it the idea of only one way to be saved or that men hold that belief?

Before I respond to anything, are we talking about coming up with an answer that corresponds with Scripture or your ideologies?


Sent from my TARDIS

 

[FrigidDev]

I'm trying to see what you find so infuriating. Is it the idea of only one way to be saved or that men hold that belief?

Sent from my TARDIS

I think it's kind of unsubstantiated to say that every single one of those tribesman for a millennium would all collectively reject Christ. The fact of the matter is that they never had a chance. They didn't reject Christ...they were never given a choice. They were born, lived, and then died, and are now being tortured for eternity.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think it's kind of unsubstantiated to say that every single one of those tribesman for a millennium would all collectively reject Christ. The fact of the matter is that they never had a chance. They didn't reject Christ...they were never given a choice. They were born, lived, and then died, and are now being tortured for eternity.

They do not want God or His word unless God opens their heart....

 

[JonC]

I think it's kind of unsubstantiated to say that every single one of those tribesman for a millennium would all collectively reject Christ. The fact of the matter is that they never had a chance. They didn't reject Christ...they were never given a choice. They were born, lived, and then died, and are now being tortured for eternity.

How do you know they all rejected Christ? How do you know they never had a chance? Even if that were true, what is it to you except perhaps an emphisis to make sure no one you encounter goes away without "having a chance"?

Sent from my TARDIS