Perspective

[FrigidDev]

How do you know they all rejected Christ? How do you know they never had a chance? Even if that were true, what is it to you except perhaps an emphisis to make sure no one you encounter goes away without "having a chance"?

Sent from my TARDIS

My point is that they didn't reject Christ. I know that they never had a chance, because the gospel wasn't brought to their islands until quite recently, and that means that every single one of those people died without knowledge of the gospel, for a millennium at least. And that's a lot of people who died and are now in hell, who never made a choice. They were simply born with a sin nature, from no fault of their own, and no matter what they did, would never be saved. To me that's extremely troubling.

You said that man is born with knowledge that murder is wrong. Well what about the cannibalistic practices of these islands? They see nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[JonC]

My point is that they didn't reject Christ. I know that they never had a chance, because the gospel wasn't brought to their islands until quite recently, and that means that every single one of those people died without knowledge of the gospel, for a millennium at least. And that's a lot of people who died and are now in hell, who never made a choice. They were simply born with a sin nature, from no fault of their own, and no matter what they did, would never be saved. To me that's extremely troubling.

You said that man is born with knowledge that murder is wrong. Well what about the cannibalistic practices of these islands? They see nothing wrong with that at all.

And my point is they DID. Your's is not a new objection.

But how could they trust in One in whom they did not believe? How could they believe in One they had never heard about? How can they hear about God if someone doesn’t preach about him? How are they going to be able to preach about Him if men are not being sent?

But I ask, “Didn’t they hear?”

The sound of their voices went out to all the earth. Their words went out to the farthest places in the world.

They are without excuse.

 

[Internet Theologian]

And my point is they DID. Your's is not a new objection.

But how could they trust in One in whom they did not believe? How could they believe in One they had never heard about? How can they hear about God if someone doesn’t preach about him? How are they going to be able to preach about Him if men are not being sent?

But I ask, “Didn’t they hear?”

The sound of their voices went out to all the earth. Their words went out to the farthest places in the world.

They are without excuse.

The world here doesn't entail the now North America, Canada. Can you provide some evidence for your claims that natives here heard the Gospel without misapplying the Scriptures you've quoted?

So, you think that their actual voices (as you state 'the sound of their voices') was actually heard here? I cannot imagine an North American native cupping his ear saying 'Did you hear that'? I'm just trying to put into imagination what you are making the bible say here.

 

[FrigidDev]

And my point is they DID. Your's is not a new objection.

But how could they trust in One in whom they did not believe? How could they believe in One they had never heard about? How can they hear about God if someone doesn’t preach about him? How are they going to be able to preach about Him if men are not being sent?

But I ask, “Didn’t they hear?”

The sound of their voices went out to all the earth. Their words went out to the farthest places in the world.

They are without excuse.

What?

No human had ever set foot on those islands for thousands of years. They never heard the gospel, and they never rejected the gospel.

To suggest that they all "wouldn't have believed anyway", is just a dishonest attempt to justify a very troubling aspect of what we believe in.

 

[Internet Theologian]

What?

No human had ever set foot on those islands for thousands of years. They never heard the gospel, and they never rejected the gospel.

To suggest that they all "wouldn't have believed anyway", is just a dishonest attempt to justify a very troubling aspect of what we believe in.

Nailed it.

 

[JonC]

What?

No human had ever set foot on those islands for thousands of years. They never heard the gospel, and they never rejected the gospel.

To suggest that they all "wouldn't have believed anyway", is just a dishonest attempt to justify a very troubling aspect of what we believe in.

What I posted was Romans 10:14-18.

And I never said "they wouldn't believe anyway." The passage said that having opportunity they did not believe. You are free to reject (and Internet Theologian is free to disagree with) my reply, but just know it wasn't mine to begin with.

 

[FrigidDev]

What I posted was Romans 10:14-18.

And I never said "they wouldn't believe anyway." I said that the did not believe. You are free to reject (and Internet Theologian is free to disagree with) my reply, but just know it wasn't mine to begin with.

So you admit that they never had a chance to reject Christ? and that in fact they are only in hell because of their sin nature, which is no fault of their own?

 

[JonC]

So you admit that they never had a chance to reject Christ? and that in fact they are only in hell because of their sin nature, which is no fault of their own?

Is that how you understand the passage?

 

[FrigidDev]

Is that how you understand the passage?

If you are saying that everyone on earth has some inherent knowledge of the gospel, then no, that it is not how I interpret the message.

 

[JonC]

If you are saying that everyone on earth has some inherent knowledge of the gospel, then no, that it is not how I interpret the message.

I am saying that faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

Another way to put it is that God's invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Everyone has had an opportunity, although granted maybe not the same opportunity. But all have rejected God. The tribal man who never heard of a Bible or saw a missionary bore witness to God's eternal power and divine nature. He heard. But he rejected what he heard. The Father and the Son are one. No one is unjustly condemned because all who are condemned have rejected the knowledge that God has granted. If you interpret the passage differently, then that is fine. I am not trying to change your mind. You are not my responsibility. You asked me to answer your questions. I did. Take it or leave it. That is your decision. And I respect that choice just as I expect you to respect mine. The question about those who have not heard the gospel, if they are justly condemned when no preacher has ever set foot on their door, was asked and answered twice in Scripture. Internet Theologian dislikes that passage and you do not seem to view it as applicable. But I do (mostly because it is the same question and the answer given is not mine).

 

[JonC]

The world here doesn't entail the now North America, Canada. Can you provide some evidence for your claims that natives here heard the Gospel without misapplying the Scriptures you've quoted?

So, you think that their actual voices (as you state 'the sound of their voices') was actually heard here? I cannot imagine an North American native cupping his ear saying 'Did you hear that'? I'm just trying to put into imagination what you are making the bible say here.

Romans 10:13-18 (ESV)
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

Romans 1:19-21 (ESV)
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I think it's kind of unsubstantiated to say that every single one of those tribesman for a millennium would all collectively reject Christ. The fact of the matter is that they never had a chance. They didn't reject Christ...they were never given a choice. They were born, lived, and then died, and are now being tortured for eternity.

So do you think God is lying when he says that he is not willing that any should perish in 2 Peter 3:9, or that he is lying when he says he wills all men to be saved?

You basically are calling God a liar, basically what you are trying to do is blame God for these people not getting saved.

The bible says he wants all men to be saved and is not willing that any should perish. Your responsibility is to believe that.. If you don't then your are in unbelief which is a sin.

 

[FrigidDev]

I'll do more research on those verses. But I still find it convenient.

I would ask, if you interpret verses these way, then why do we even need witnessing? It seems everyone on earth who ever lived or ever will live, will magically receive knowledge of the gospel, so what purpose are we here for? If people have already heard, then God may as well take us home as soon as we are saved.

 

[FrigidDev]

So do you think God is lying when he says that he is not willing that any should perish in 2 Peter 3:9, or that he is lying when he says he wills all men to be saved?

You basically are calling God a liar, basically what you are trying to do is blame God for these people not getting saved.

The bible says he wants all men to be saved and is not willing that any should perish. Your responsibility is to believe that.. If you don't then your are in unbelief which is a sin.

I'm critically examining God's Word. I'm taking a very hard long look at what I believe, and if that means questioning the interpretation of those verses, then I will definitely do that. It's not disbelief, it's having a critical frame of mind.

 

[TCassidy]

Romans 10:18 (ESV)
18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

Romans 1:19-21 (ESV)
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

I am not saying that those who "have not heard" have enough information to be saved. I am, however, saying that they are justly condemned for rejecting Christ. What can be known of God has been manifested to them, and they rejected God.

In Romans 10:18 Paul is quoting from Psalm 19:4. to show that David also understood that God's General Revelation of Himself extended to all of mankind.

Take the word "words" in context and we see it is not the articulated Special Revelation of the Gospel but rather the General Revelation of God's existence, power, and majesty that is in view here so that they were without excuse.

 

[JonC]

Nope. Man is already under condemnation prior to any rejection of God. Their being lost in sin is what keeps them there, not rejection of God.

So men are condemned

I'll do more research on those verses. But I still find it convenient.

I would ask, if you interpret verses these way, then why do we even need witnessing? It seems everyone on earth who ever lived or ever will live, will magically receive knowledge of the gospel, so what purpose are we here for? If people have already heard, then God may as well take us home as soon as we are saved.

Because the objection that Paul is addressing is "How can they be justly condemned for rejecting what they have never heard?" The answer is that they are justly condemned for rejecting what they have heard.

What I am saying is that all men have had enough knowledge of God to reject God (to include rejecting Christ). The OT saints were saved the same way that we are, by faith in Christ. We all have an opportunity, but not the same opportunity. God's nature (Christ's nature)....their "name"...is revealed to all men and all men are justly condemned for rejecting God (it is impossible to sin without that sin being a rejection of God).

I know a man who was saved through study of Scripture at a bible college (the truths of scripture did not sink in until he had to settle down and study for a year). Does that mean that this man's brother, who was not saved, is somehow excused because he did not benefit from such a study? Condemnation is about rejecting God, and all have rejected God (all have sinned, they are "unrighteous").

 

[FrigidDev]

So men are condemned

Because the objection that Paul is addressing is "How can they be justly condemned for rejecting what they have never heard?" The answer is that they are justly condemned for rejecting what they have heard.

What I am saying is that all men have had enough knowledge of God to reject God (to include rejecting Christ). The OT saints were saved the same way that we are, by faith in Christ. We all have an opportunity, but not the same opportunity. God's nature (Christ's nature)....their "name"...is revealed to all men and all men are justly condemned for rejecting God (it is impossible to sin without that sin being a rejection of God).

I know a man who was saved through study of Scripture at a bible college (the truths of scripture did not sink in until he had to settle down and study for a year). Does that mean that this man's brother, who was not saved, is somehow excused because he did not benefit from such a study? Condemnation is about rejecting God, and all have rejected God (all have sinned, they are "unrighteous").

I think you're making a critical error here.

Assume I am a native. I grow up, and I live out of doors(obviously), I observe Creation and its majesty, and then decided, "You know what, I think that something some time ago must have created this stuff". And then I believe in my pagan gods which also have a story of creation.

So...am I saved? Because I've certainly never heard the name Jesus before, and I don't even know what the meaning of "sin", is.

I think TCassidy puts it quite well.

In Romans 10:18 Paul is quoting from Psalm 19:4. to show that David also understood that God's General Revelation of Himself extended to all of mankind.

Take the word "words" in context and we see it is not the articulated Special Revelation of the Gospel but rather the General Revelation of God's existence, power, and majesty that is in view here so that they were without excuse.

 

[JonC]

I think you're making a critical error here.

Assume I am a native. I grow up, and I live out of doors(obviously), I observe Creation and its majesty, and then decided, "You know what, I think that something some time ago must have created this stuff". And then I believe in my pagan gods which also have a story of creation.

So...am I saved? Because I've certainly never heard the name Jesus before, and I don't even know what the meaning of "sin", is.

I think TCassidy puts it quite well.

We both think the othet makes errors here, which is why we discuss things.

I do believe that God is revealed through His creation, and also that God has made Himself known to man. And men are justly condemned for rejecting God.

It is not a critical error but different questions. If you ask how men who never heard of Christ be justly condemned (the answer to which you "infuriating"), then Paul gives that answer clearly. All have rejected Christ in terms of just condemnation.

But you are also asking how the gospel of Christ is revealed to those isolated people towards salvation. I can only say this, like Philip and the Ethiopian, God provides the way.

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[FrigidDev]

We both think we make errors here, which is why we discuss things.

I do believe that God is revealed through His creation, and also that God has made Himself known to man. And men are justly condemned for rejecting God.

It is not a critical error but different questions. If you ask how men who never heard of Christ be justly condemned (the answer to which you "infuriating"), then Paul gives that answer clearly. All have rejected Christ in terms of just condemnation.

But you are also asking how the gospel of Christ is revealed to those isolated people towards salvation. I can only say this, like Philip and the Ethiopian, God provides the way.

Sent from my TARDIS

But that's not what the scripture says. It's talking about the general knowledge of a divine being. Which does NOT qualify as the gospel.

There is a very specific narrow path to become saved, and someone who has never heard the gospel, will not be saved, plain and simple. They were never given the choice, "What will you do with Jesus?". Sure, they might know that there was a divine creator of the universe...but that's as far as you get in that passage.

 

[JonC]

But that's not what the scripture says. It's talking about the general knowledge of a divine being. Which does NOT qualify as the gospel.

There is a very specific narrow path to become saved, and someone who has never heard the gospel, will not be saved, plain and simple. They were never given the choice, "What will you do with Jesus?". Sure, they might know that there was a divine creator of the universe...but that's as far as you get in that passage.

Does Scripture say that what is revealed is a "general knowledge of a supreme being", or does it say that God Himself has made known his power and his nature in such a way that they are without excuse?

Salvation is specific, but it is not dependent on man. It is dependent on the will of God.

Sent from my TARDIS