Philosophical discussion about free will

[npetreley]

Preach it, John. Your arguments are extremely well founded in Scripture, and that's the bottom line.

So much of the opposing arguments boil down to, "I can't feel good about God if that is true, so it must not be true." It is pointless to struggle with His word, though. It's all there in black and white (and red in some cases).

 

[MB]

Hi dwmoeller;

This is probably getting off topic somewhat, but your obvious answer makes me very curious. Here is why:
- Lets say Bob dies without believing in Christ.
- You would agree that when God decided to create Bob (before the foundation of the world) He knew full well that Bob would go through life without believing in Christ. Correct?
- IOW, God KNEW there was NO chance that Bob would ever believe in Him. Right?
- God could have chosen to not create Bob with this knowledge that there was no possibility of Bob believing in Him. Agreed?
- Since God is responsible for Bob's existence, and God knew full well what the end result of His creating Bob would be that Bob would go to hell, how can God not be held responsible to some extend for Bob ultimately going to hell?

Sure Bob is still responsible for his own choices, but it seems God would be culpable as well since he could have prevented it by the simple expedient of not creating Bob.

Man's ability is what makes man responsible for his own fate. God doesn't send men to hell they go there because it's the result of there choice. God is not responsible for man's choice. Which is why the idea that God's foreknowledge causes a man to be and do what he does is ridiculous. God's foreknowledge of the actions of men is known by God because man does them, not because God's foreknowledge makes them do it.
If God didn't create men who wind up in hell then God wouldn't have known they would go there to begin with. Can God know what doesn't exist? Or can He know those He never created?
MB

 

[MB]

Hello MB.

I did not say 'How can you say that?' to the Proverb but to your 'if that is the case'.
PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

'if that is the case.' How can you say that I asked?

What you believe Pro 16:1 to say is that He doesn't determine the words people speak when the verse clearly says He does and He doesn't direct our steps when the verse, Pro 16:9 clearly says He does.

It's interesting when others tell you what you believe when they haven't a clue. God does direct our steps because we are His. Not everybody belongs to God. The steps of the believer is directed such as Jonah. However Jonah already belonged to God. God may convince and convict those who will listen but He never forces Salvation on anyone. We belong to whom we serve. Your suggestion that God directs every man's steps in life makes God a sinner. Everyone sins so did God make us sin as well?

Yes. Since God said we are responsible we are responsible. If I was innocent I would still be responsible because He says so. I do not talk back to God. The "Why does He still blame us for who resists His will?" Is open for anyone with eyes to see.

God isn't a liar either we are responsible or He is responsible. If we do what we do because God directs us to do what we do then God is responsible.

Why does God create those He knows are going to Hell?
In hope they overcome?

If God didn't create them then God wouldn't have known. God isn't a fortune teller

But God knows they are going to Hell? What chance is there to overcome?

What man does is what God knows if the man dosn't exist then the man can't do it therefore God wouldn't know it because it never happened.

If God knows they are going to Hell they will go to Hell won't they?

If man goes to hell only then can God know it.

Wasn't possible for Him though was it? JN 11:41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."
Jesus said His Father always hears Him but not in the garden. Jesus was refused mercy. It wasn't possible for God not to strike His Son, it was predestined. History's pivotal moment.

All true but men are not part of the redemption of the world. We aren't God's only begotten Son. I believe it to be heretical to compare men to God.

If man is sovereign then the king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. PR 21:1. Have another Proverb.

So by this your are saying that Hitler was directed by God to murder 6 million Jews and Christians. I believe that is called blaspheme.
Pro 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
What is the Lord pondering if it isn't the descissions of men?. Why ponder something you directed?

I made no choice. Jesus came to me and convinced me while I was an atheist. He did a similar thing to Paul if you remember.
AC 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
And He did it to them. And lydia. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. Acts 16:14.

All true and it didn't take saving them before faith to do this at all. Being convinced is not being saved or regenerated. because it isn't our faith that saves us but the faith of Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I no longer need excuses Jesus Christ died for my sins and I have been imputed with His righteousness I confess my sins.

I would hope that you do.

You run counter to scripture again. ...God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Rom 9:18. JER 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

True again. We are first chosen by God convinced by God convicted by God and granted repentance by God. Yet we still must willingly listen to the word in order for all this to happen and then we must voluntarily put on the righteousness of Christ before we are saved. We can only have grace by entering in to it through faith.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You don't. You are supposed to ask the question "Why does He still blame us for who resists His will?" And He is then supposed to answer you, "Who are you to talk back?" But you won't ask Him the question because you don't believe Paul's conclusions of the passages preceding. "Why does He still blame us for who resists His will?"

We have a valid theology whether it is liked or not.

Are all things possible with God or not?

Why am I suppose to ask why does He still blame? I know why man is to Blame, and it isn't just because God said so. We are to blame because we are responsible for our own actions. I don't blame God for my sin or my actions. I know I sin because it's my desire to do so. It isn't because God predestined it to happen, or because God knew I would, or because God directed my steps. Therefore causing me to helplessly sin as if I had no choice.

We have a valid theology whether it is believed or not.

There is nothing valid about the theories of man.

And Elijah. To teach us.

Both belonged to God Sinners don't.

He has no argument with me as I am what I am by the grace of God. If He doesn't want me to behave this way I will behave in another of His ways for me. being confident of this, that he who began a good work in me will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Php 1:6. I'm a work in progress. I have complete confidence in His promise to complete the work He started in me. My transformation is guaranteed my faith sure and certain and my soul anchored.

I listen to the argument and check what is said by scripture.

If this were true you wouldn't believe that God's foreknowledge is the cause of what we do.

If anything disagrees with scripture then it is false.

It's true that not all of what you claim lines up with scripture. Some things are right but most of it is not scriptural.

That the first cause of that is God is no problem. God sends delusions and lying spirits to do His work of hardening at times. 1 Kings 22:23; 2 Thess 2:11.

God doesn't tempt men. Though many are turned over to reprobate minds.

I am not deceived I trust in my Saviour you are in error. The scripture says ...but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue. What does it say?

If you're not deceived then why does your theory of what God's foreknowledge is like, isn't found in scripture.

Goats are not lost, sheep are. The Good Shepherd came to find the lost and He said, "It is finished."

Sheep belong to Christ. The lost are not sheep although there are lost sheep. The Lost are every non-believer. Paul said we are His by faith.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

I agree with this. No one seeks God, no one is righteous. isn't it wonderful that this still doesn't keep us from believing in the gospel and accepting Christ as our Savior.
I didn't seek God He saught me. I am not saved by my righteousness but by His.

No? I have proved it true. God does not determine the steps of the wicked... Is a straight denial of PR 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends--even the wicked for a day of disaster.

PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

john.

You haven't proved that at all. The denial of man having a voluntary will is a denial of the entire gospel.
MB

 

[dwmoeller1]

Man's ability is what makes man responsible for his own fate. God doesn't send men to hell they go there because it's the result of there choice. God is not responsible for man's choice.

While God may not be responsible for man's choice, how can you say that He doesn't send men to hell? After all, Matt 13 describes very clearly that God sends men to hell. Sure, its a result of their choice, but God is still responsible for sending them to hell. Man may make choices which result in hell, but God is still the one who set up the consequences and enforces the consequences.

Which is why the idea that God's foreknowledge causes a man to be and do what he does is ridiculous. God's foreknowledge of the actions of men is known by God because man does them, not because God's foreknowledge makes them do it.

Agreed. I said nothing at all about God's foreknowledge causing men to do something. I simply argue that since God's know for certain what man's choice will be, yet God still decides to create the man whom He knows will reject Him, then that would make God culpable in some way. After all, if I KNOW that if I give Bob a gun he will turn around and kill someone, then I would be help partly responsible for the results even though I did nothing to cause Bob to choose as he did.

If God didn't create men who wind up in hell then God wouldn't have known they would go there to begin with. Can God know what doesn't exist? Or can He know those He never created?
MB

Interesting thought. Lets clear this up. Did God know what Bob would do before He created him? If not, then we have an essentially different understanding of God's foreknowledge. If so, then wouldn't that mean that God can know what doesn't exist yet?

 

[dwmoeller1]

It's not that the choices are undetermined as much as it is that they are undetermined by anything outside himself. In the same way I believe that men can also be created to make choice that are only determined by themselves.

I understand what you believe...I am not seeing the logical necessity for your line of thinking though. If, as you tried to argue, the only possilbe logical option to your choice lead necessarily to infinite regression, then I could see the logical necessity of your position. However, I have already addressed why infinite regression is not, in fact, the only other option.

So, unless you can show the deficiency of my alternate line of reasoning in addressing the problem of infinite regression, I guess we are simply at the point where there are two logically valid options and we will simply have to agree to disagree, at least as far as the philosophical aspects of the discussion go.

Additionally, God lying is a whole other issue. That would be contradictory toward his nature and that is not what I'm talking about...I'm simply addressing choosing one option over another option, both of which are not contradictory to his nature.

Hmmm...if thats all you have been talking about, then we have definitely been talking past each other. If we allow that there are choices were multiple options which do no contradict the choosers nature, then I will allow the contra-casual position as viable.

On the other hand, do you allow that man can no more choose against his nature than God can? If so, then it seems the central issue is *not* about the nature of choice, but about the nature of man's nature.

 

[npetreley]

So by this your are saying that Hitler was directed by God to murder 6 million Jews and Christians. I believe that is called blaspheme.

You mean if one says that God raises up someone to kill or oppress people, that's blasphemy? The Bible includes a lot of blasphemy, then. Here's one of many examples:

14 “ But, behold, I will raise up a nation against you, O house of Israel,” Says the LORD God of hosts; “ And they will afflict you from the entrance of Hamath To the Valley of the Arabah.”

[...]

17 “Therefore thus says the LORD:‘ Your wife shall be a harlot in the city; Your sons and daughters shall fall by the sword; Your land shall be divided by survey line; You shall die in a defiled land; And Israel shall surely be led away captive From his own land.’”

And another:

8 The LORD has purposed to destroy
The wall of the daughter of Zion.
He has stretched out a line;
He has not withdrawn His hand from destroying;
Therefore He has caused the rampart and wall to lament;
They languished together.
9 Her gates have sunk into the ground;
He has destroyed and broken her bars.
Her king and her princes are among the nations;
The Law is no more,
And her prophets find no vision from the LORD.
10 The elders of the daughter of Zion
Sit on the ground and keep silence;
They throw dust on their heads
And gird themselves with sackcloth.
The virgins of Jerusalem
Bow their heads to the ground.
11 My eyes fail with tears,
My heart is troubled;
My bile is poured on the ground
Because of the destruction of the daughter of my people,
Because the children and the infants
Faint in the streets of the city.
12 They say to their mothers,
“ Where is grain and wine?”
As they swoon like the wounded
In the streets of the city,
As their life is poured out
In their mothers’ bosom.
13 How shall I console you?
To what shall I liken you,
O daughter of Jerusalem?
What shall I compare with you, that I may comfort you,
O virgin daughter of Zion?
For your ruin is spread wide as the sea;
Who can heal you?
14 Your prophets have seen for you
False and deceptive visions;
They have not uncovered your iniquity,
To bring back your captives,
But have envisioned for you false prophecies and delusions.
15 All who pass by clap their hands at you;
They hiss and shake their heads
At the daughter of Jerusalem:
“ Is this the city that is called
‘ The perfection of beauty,
The joy of the whole earth’?”
16 All your enemies have opened their mouth against you;
They hiss and gnash their teeth.
They say, “We have swallowed her up!
Surely this is the day we have waited for;
We have found it, we have seen it!”
17 The LORD has done what He purposed;
He has fulfilled His word
Which He commanded in days of old.
He has thrown down and has not pitied,
And He has caused an enemy to rejoice over you;
He has exalted the horn of your adversaries.
18 Their heart cried out to the Lord,
“ O wall of the daughter of Zion,
Let tears run down like a river day and night;
Give yourself no relief;
Give your eyes no rest.
19 “ Arise, cry out in the night,
At the beginning of the watches;
Pour out your heart like water before the face of the Lord.
Lift your hands toward Him
For the life of your young children,
Who faint from hunger at the head of every street.”
20 “ See, O LORD, and consider!
To whom have You done this?
Should the women eat their offspring,
The children they have cuddled?[a]
Should the priest and prophet be slain
In the sanctuary of the Lord?
21 “ Young and old lie
On the ground in the streets;
My virgins and my young men
Have fallen by the sword;
You have slain them in the day of Your anger,
You have slaughtered and not pitied.
22 “ You have invited as to a feast day
The terrors that surround me.
In the day of the LORD’s anger
There was no refugee or survivor.
Those whom I have borne and brought up
My enemies have destroyed.”

 

[J.D.]

This is interesting - I was just thinking about starting a thread entitled something like "God kills people" or "God hates people" and stand back and watch the indignant reactions.

God told Israel to utterly destroy their enemies. Including babies. Does God hate babies? I don't know, but He said to destroy them. If God knew who little baby Adolph (Hitler) was, did He love him? When God destroyed the earth, and all but eight people were killed, there were a lot of "good" people, and innocent babies, floating face down in that water, right? How about that guy that killed those little Amish girls in PA? Did God love him when he was a baby, knowing what kind of hanious act he would committ?

Something to think about.

 

[Skandelon]

Hmmm...if thats all you have been talking about, then we have definitely been talking past each other. If we allow that there are choices were multiple options which do no contradict the choosers nature, then I will allow the contra-casual position as viable.

On the other hand, do you allow that man can no more choose against his nature than God can? If so, then it seems the central issue is *not* about the nature of choice, but about the nature of man's nature.

Exactly! That is why I said we could move on in the discussion to speak about more theological issues in regard to man's nature. Your position is that man is born in a state where he cannot see, hear or understand and thus repent. I believe that condition is not "from birth" but instead is something that men grow into over a period of time after continual rebellion. This is what the bible calls "hardening" (also called calloused, blinded etc). Don't get me wrong, I do affirm the doctrine of original sin in that all men are born guilty and even with the bent toward sin; I just reject the unfounded idea that men once influenced by the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel truth cannot respond in faith. I believe they can respond in faith but if they don't, their hearts will grow calloused. I've shown the biblical support for this in the other thread...

 

[MB]

While God may not be responsible for man's choice, how can you say that He doesn't send men to hell? After all, Matt 13 describes very clearly that God sends men to hell. Sure, its a result of their choice, but God is still responsible for sending them to hell. Man may make choices which result in hell, but God is still the one who set up the consequences and enforces the consequences.

No God has only created the consequence. Man sends himself to hell and suffers the consequence. If the man had been willing to listen and accept Christ he wouldn't go to hell. God has given man the chance to escape hell to escape condemnation to escape the deserved consequence. It is man who rejected Christ. Therefore man is responsible for his own destiny.

Agreed. I said nothing at all about God's foreknowledge causing men to do something. I simply argue that since God's know for certain what man's choice will be, yet God still decides to create the man whom He knows will reject Him, then that would make God culpable in some way. After all, if I KNOW that if I give Bob a gun he will turn around and kill someone, then I would be help partly responsible for the results even though I did nothing to cause Bob to choose as he did.

We can't make God out to be an accessory to our sins just because He gives us life. It's like saying Here God your responsible as well so take some of this blame and suffer from your own consequences to.

If we sin it isn't because God allowed it or wanted us to. He didn't have to create us but, His creation of us has nothing to do with our sinning. Thats our decision. God gave us our own mind, and will, in which we choose to do what we want to with our life, to live for good or evil. He gave us the life, it's up to us how we live our lives.

Interesting thought. Lets clear this up. Did God know what Bob would do before He created him? If not, then we have an essentially different understanding of God's foreknowledge. If so, then wouldn't that mean that God can know what doesn't exist yet?

God knows all, there is nothing He doesn't know. He knew I would sin and you would sin and that the whole world would sin. However He also knew that some men would learn of Him and at least try to over come the sin in there lives through believing in His Holy and righteous Son. These few is what His plan is for, not those who never believe in Him.
In a court of Law to prove accessory before or after the fact. Intent has to be proved.
God's intention isn't that we sin but, that we come to believe on Him. Blaming God for the reaction of His action is to say He shouldn't have made any action to begin with. Sin it self is a by product of the Law. The minute God made Laws to live by, there was an opposite reaction called sin.
Was it the intent of God's heart for man to sin?, Or was it His intent that man have a choice?
MB

 

[webdog]

This is interesting - I was just thinking about starting a thread entitled something like "God kills people" or "God hates people" and stand back and watch the indignant reactions.

God told Israel to utterly destroy their enemies. Including babies. Does God hate babies? I don't know, but He said to destroy them. If God knew who little baby Adolph (Hitler) was, did He love him? When God destroyed the earth, and all but eight people were killed, there were a lot of "good" people, and innocent babies, floating face down in that water, right? How about that guy that killed those little Amish girls in PA? Did God love him when he was a baby, knowing what kind of hanious act he would committ?

Something to think about.

due to the fall it is appointed for everyone to die once...infants included. I believe the physical killing of these infants was an even greater love than we could possibly know, as God saved these little ones from following in the footsteps of their parents who would eventually die the second death, too. I see no lack of love on God's part, nor any hatred towards infants.

 

[dwmoeller1]

No God has only created the consequence. Man sends himself to hell and suffers the consequence. If the man had been willing to listen and accept Christ he wouldn't go to hell. God has given man the chance to escape hell to escape condemnation to escape the deserved consequence. It is man who rejected Christ. Therefore man is responsible for his own destiny.

Please give me one Scriptural example of man sending himself to hell. Every mention I can find shows God sending man to hell. Sure God has given man the chance to escape but in the end, God still sends man to hell. He no only created the consequences, He also carries out the sentence. He sends men to hell just as surely as a judge sends a criminal to jail. The criminal may deserve jail by his own actions but it seems counterlogical to claim that the criminal sent himself to jail - the criminal generally does whatever he can to stay out of jail.

We can't make God out to be an accessory to our sins just because He gives us life. It's like saying Here God your responsible as well so take some of this blame and suffer from your own consequences to.

You are jumping to conclusions. I have said nothing which leads to the concept of God being an accessory to our sins. Thats not what this is about. I grant fully that man alone is responsible for his sins. What I am pointing out is the fact that God is still culpable in the end result since He could have just as easily have prevented the event by the simple expedient of not creating man.

If we sin it isn't because God allowed it or wanted us to. He didn't have to create us but, His creation of us has nothing to do with our sinning. Thats our decision. God gave us our own mind, and will, in which we choose to do what we want to with our life, to live for good or evil. He gave us the life, it's up to us how we live our lives.

Yes, we are responsible for our sin and we choose what we do with our life. BUT God created us knowing full well exactly what we would choose to do/not do. How can He not be at least partly responsible since He had a choice to not create a man destined for hell? Man may be responsible for his decisions, but God is responsible for creating the man whom He KNEW would go to hell.

God knows all, there is nothing He doesn't know. He knew I would sin and you would sin and that the whole world would sin. However He also knew that some men would learn of Him and at least try to over come the sin in there lives through believing in His Holy and righteous Son. These few is what His plan is for, not those who never believe in Him.

Why in the world then did God create those men He KNEW would never accept His plan? He KNEW Bob would go to hell yet He still chose to create Him. Why would God purposefully, not only allow, but specifically create the necessary conditions for such a thing to happen?

In a court of Law to prove accessory before or after the fact. Intent has to be proved. God's intention isn't that we sin but, that we come to believe on Him. Blaming God for the reaction of His action is to say He shouldn't have made any action to begin with. Sin it self is a by product of the Law. The minute God made Laws to live by, there was an opposite reaction called sin.
Was it the intent of God's heart for man to sin?, Or was it His intent that man have a choice?
MB

I am not saying that God is culpable for man's sin, but that He is culpable for man going to hell. Legally speaking, intent is established if the doer knows or should know that the results of his conduct are reasonably certain to occur. Since God KNOWS the ultimate result of His creating Bob, legally speaking He would be considered to have intent and thus would be culpable.

 

[dwmoeller1]

I believe the physical killing of these infants was an even greater love than we could possibly know, as God saved these little ones from following in the footsteps of their parents who would eventually die the second death, too

Wow! Killing as an act of love.

 

[npetreley]

Wow! Killing as an act of love.

:laugh: Ha ha, you're killing me! :laugh:

Aw, I guess you love me.

 

[webdog]

Wow! Killing as an act of love.

It's easy to ignore the whole of what I am saying to focus on a single phrase.

 

[dwmoeller1]

It's easy to ignore the whole of what I am saying to focus on a single phrase..

Ok, please demonstrate what part I ignore which would modify my conclusion above and I will retract it.

 

[johnp.]

I see no lack of love on God's part, nor any hatred towards infants.

That's only because you have assumed all children are saved. There is ambiguity in the scriptures concerning the fate of reprobate's children webdog. You cannot know.

john.

 

[webdog]

Ok, please demonstrate what part I ignore which would modify my conclusion above and I will retract it.

It's a very simple phrase...figure it out.

 

[webdog]

That's only because you have assumed all children are saved. There is ambiguity in the scriptures concerning the fate of reprobate's children webdog. You cannot know.

john.

You have eliminated justice from God's character. I do assume all children are saved, that's justice. Please show one Scripture that alludes to the fact that there is a reprobate child....and I don't mean physical death.

 

[reformedbeliever]

You have eliminated justice from God's character. I do assume all children are saved, that's justice. Please show one Scripture that alludes to the fact that there is a reprobate child....and I don't mean physical death.

I'm not stating this is fact or being dogmatic about it..... but. lol..... there is that word.

If what Dr. Pettingill alluded to about the women somehow procreating with those who were either possessed with demons... or possibly even demons themselves, that would point to possibly why men, women, and even children would have been destroyed? I know....... I'm reaching....lol. You never do that do you web? :laugh:

 

[johnp.]

You have eliminated justice from God's character.

I have done no such thing I merely state God's justice.

RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

You should ask why Paul bring this point up here? Is it because he knows your objections webdog and has eliminated them?

I do assume all children are saved, that's justice.

Are not all children born in condemnation? Why yes they are, PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
PS 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

Your justice should be God's justice. If you want to knock why don't you complain that we are all destroyed by Adam's sin?

Please show one Scripture that alludes to the fact that there is a reprobate child....and I don't mean physical death.

But I thought it such a big thing that God doesn't force anyone into salvation? What's your game man?

Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

john.