Plain, Simple, Un-adulterated Easy to Understand Truth

[Brother Bob]

If He came to "His own" which according to CA are the "elect", then how come only a part of the "elect" received Him?

 

[webdog]

The part that received Him are the "elect"...the "Israel" from the "not all Israel is Israel"

 

[reformedbeliever]

If He came to "His own" which according to CA are the "elect", then how come only a part of the "elect" received Him?

Well, lets see Bro. Bob. You live in America. You could say that Americans are your own people huh? But then again, you could say that your family are your own people. Which is it? Americans or your family that are you own people? Could it be both with different meanings?

 

[MB]

Hi RB;

Well, lets see Bro. Bob. You live in America. You could say that Americans are your own people huh? But then again, you could say that your family are your own people. Which is it? Americans or your family that are you own people? Could it be both with different meanings?

Actually all believers are His family the Problem Calvinism has is that it teaches the elect are His before they are. We are children by faith not by choosing.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

His choosing us does not make us His children or sheep. So before you were saved you were lost just like everyone else.
MB

 

[webdog]

Well, lets see Bro. Bob. You live in America. You could say that Americans are your own people huh? But then again, you could say that your family are your own people. Which is it? Americans or your family that are you own people? Could it be both with different meanings?

If we let Bible explain Bible, we know who "His own" are.

 

[amity]

Since Jesus is God...couldn't He speak any language He wanted?

correct. that is good

Yeah, He could have, but He chose to make Himself understood to the people He was addressing! That means Aramaic it would seem. I don't doubt most of the epistles were written in koine, though.

I ask this question because I lived in Lebanon, where some are familiar with Aramaic, as it is the language of the Maronite church. These people as they expressed it to me believe Christ taught predestination (although they are nominally Catholic). I don't speak Aramaic myself, but I assume they were deriving this from the way the scriptures read in Aramaic?

 

[amity]

Actually all believers are His family the Problem Calvinism has is that it teaches the elect are His before they are. We are children by faith not by choosing.

Ephesians 1 might have something to do with that belief: "4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
His choosing us does not make us His children or sheep.

Well, that seems a rather odd metaphor for God to choose then, because generally children or sheep are not such because of choice. So God probably understands why we take it to mean that the choice is His.

So before you were saved you were lost just like everyone else.

I am not sure anyone is disputing this. Yes, the unregenerate elect are just like everyone else... except that they are elect. They are no less sinners, for example.

 

[psalms109:31]

Chosen

We are chosen in Him, predestined to be adopted as son, just like we are chosen apart from Jesus for eternal damnation.

Our hope for salvation is in Him, being apart from Christ is going astray and and going our own way.

Even His sheep can do that and apart from Jesus we are headed for destruction and the good shephard uses other sheep to bring the lost sheep back into the flock.

Our hope will always be Jesus, it is those who endure to the end that shall be saved.

 

[amity]

Gordon, I ran a check of Acts 13:48 in every different English version carried by Bible Gateway. They all seem to have the same meaning, i.e., those individuals who were ordained to eternal life then at that point believed. So it seems no one has quite had the same interpretation as you.

Next I did a survey on I Peter 1:2 to try to glean the connotations of "foreknowledge" and found the same thing. The New Living Translation and The Message, the Revised Standard and the Wycliffe all seem to have pretty much the same take on it. Determinate. Long ago. We are saved to obedience by the purpose of God. Not one of them gives a clue that this does not apply to specific individuals, or that it is based on something they did.

Are you in a minority of one on some of these issues?

Not that that is necessarily a horrible thing to be. I probably have some beliefs that are unique to me, too.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Gordon, I ran a check of Acts 13:48 in every different English version carried by Bible Gateway. They all seem to have the same meaning, i.e., those individuals who were ordained to eternal life then at that point believed. So it seems no one has quite had the same interpretation as you.

Next I did a survey on I Peter 1:2 to try to glean the connotations of "foreknowledge" and found the same thing. The New Living Translation and The Message, the Revised Standard and the Wycliffe all seem to have pretty much the same take on it. Determinate. Long ago. We are saved to obedience by the purpose of God. Not one of them gives a clue that this does not apply to specific individuals, or that it is based on something they did.

Are you in a minority of one on some of these issues?

Not that that is necessarily a horrible thing to be. I probably have some beliefs that are unique to me, too.

Not sure what you are saying. The Greek and English to me say the same in the translations I have and I do read and know the Greek.

The text states that the ones believing were appointed to heaven before they believed. That is the way I understand it.

The difference is in how I understand it. I see the appointing which takes place prior to the actual event of believing resulting form God's absolute knowledge or as we describe it foreknowledge.

Again I am not sure how you are understanding what I say.

Gordon

 

[amity]

Not sure what you are saying. The Greek and English to me say the same in the translations I have and I do read and know the Greek.

The text states that the ones believing were appointed to heaven before they believed. That is the way I understand it.

The difference is in how I understand it. I see the appointing which takes place prior to the actual event of believing resulting form God's absolute knowledge or as we describe it foreknowledge.

Again I am not sure how you are understanding what I say.

Gordon

Oh, so you are just telling us how you choose to interpret the passage. My point is that none of the translators have ever seemingly seen what you say in the syntax of the sentence itself.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Here is a list of different text and versions:

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou kuriou kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou kuriou kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion


Byzantine Majority
akouonta de ta eqnh ecairen kai edoxazen ton logon tou kuriou kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion


Alexandrian
akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou kuriou kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion


Hort and Westcott
akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou qeou kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion


Latin Vulgate
13:48 audientes autem gentes gavisae sunt et glorificabant verbum Domini et crediderunt quotquot erant praeordinati ad vitam aeternam


King James Version
13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


American Standard Version
13:48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


Bible in Basic English
13:48 And the Gentiles, hearing this, were glad and gave glory to the word of God: and those marked out by God for eternal life had faith.


Darby's English Translation
13:48 And those of the nations, hearing it, rejoiced, and glorified the word of the Lord, and believed, as many as were ordained to eternal life.


Douay Rheims
13:48 And the Gentiles hearing it, were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to life everlasting, believed.


Noah Webster Bible
13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.


Weymouth New Testament
13:48 The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed.


World English Bible
13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


Young's Literal Translation
13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;

They all say the same thing. In the Greek the only difference is in th letter "e" in the Byzantine Majority text instead of "o"

 

[amity]

And not a one of them expresses the idea that the ordaining is dependent upon the believing, but rather the other way around.

If the translators felt that what you say about this passage was the case, they could have translatd it differently to reflect that, you know.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Maybe if I post this again you will reply to it Gordon... but I doubt it since you ran from it before.

Ok Gordon, you say that God chose people before the foundatin of the world, based upon those He saw would believe.

Could those He did not forsee believe have a chance to come to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Not if God foresaw them not believe.

If that is what you believe, you are a fatalist.

How is your belief not fatalism Gordon? Those whom God saw *not* believing never have a chance to be saved... because God did not see them believe. They are just stuck with the fate of what God forsaw them do. With Calvinism, we believe that foreknowledge is in an intimate sense. That God had a loving relationship with us. Not simple fate as you believe.

 

[Jarthur001]

Really, where specifically have you dealt with the Greek on any passage. If you want to go toe to toe with me on any passage in the NT concerning the Greek have at it. Let me hear from you personally on this matter. Can you personally demonstrate from the Greek what you believe? Show me. Don't quote from others you do your own work.

Your turn

Ok mr greek...you are on.

 

[donnA]

You know I was thinking, when you adopt a baby, you choose that particular child, they do not choose you. That infant has no choice as to who adopts it.
When you own a sheep, or other animal, like your pet, they did not choose you, you had to go and choose them. They have no choice as to who owns them.

 

[Jarthur001]

How is that? What would a hyper-Calvinist say?

Its the order that freewillers place foreknowing, that turns them in HCs.

They think God looks down in time..and sees what happens...and then is locked into making man in the way man does. With this view pray is not any good. With this view God is controled based on what He sees man do.

 

[Blammo]

You know I was thinking, when you adopt a baby, you choose that particular child, they do not choose you. That infant has no choice as to who adopts it.
When you own a sheep, or other animal, like your pet, they did not choose you, you had to go and choose them. They have no choice as to who owns them.

And, when your adopted child chooses to throw it's food all over the floor, you did not choose for it to do so, it chose to do so all by itself.

And, when your pet chooses to take a dump on your carpet, you did not choose for it to do so, it chose to do so all by itself.

 

[reformedbeliever]

You know I was thinking, when you adopt a baby, you choose that particular child, they do not choose you. That infant has no choice as to who adopts it.
When you own a sheep, or other animal, like your pet, they did not choose you, you had to go and choose them. They have no choice as to who owns them.

Absolutely Donna... and Jesus said you did not choose me but I chose you.... and appointed you... John 15:16a

 

[reformedbeliever]

And, when your adopted child chooses to throw it's food all over the floor, you did not choose for it to do so, it chose to do so all by itself.

And, when your pet chooses to take a dump on your carpet, you did not choose for it to do so, it chose to do so all by itself.

Oh, but it was predestined.........