Plain, Simple, Un-adulterated Easy to Understand Truth

[GordonSlocum]

This thread has gone to these much pages, and Gordon Slocum has not answered my logical question to his statement about the Calvinists on this board being judged according to the Scriptures he posted.

So, I will now quote the specific verse he points to with his statement about Calvinists being judged by God:



And I am again asking the question which he does not seem able to answer:

And then what ?
The Calvinist will be sent to hell ?

Or has God appointed you, Gordon Slocum, to act in His behalf and judge all Calvinists by arguing for God about this verse ?

Please answer both questions.

The answer to you inquirers is: If you are not saved you will bust Hell wide open. Not sure how big the splash will be, but regardless of the tag you wear there is only one way, and I have the correct understanding of it. Here it is.

Only the Elect according to Foreknowledge / Those who have, according to Romans 10, been saved - are appointed to heaven and found in Christ before the foundation of the world. The now is settled in Christ before the foundation of the world based upon God's Absolute Knowledge / what we call foreknowledge, foresight, pre-science. So if you as a Follower of John Calvin the persecutor of and murder of other Believers - a historical fact - are really saved in spite of your false doctrine then you are appointed to heaven Acts 13:48.

Don't you just love it. Lets all sing "Just As I AM" I know that drives you Calvinist Crazy.

By the way Coffee is on and it sure is good on this cold morning - While we beat each other up over this Calvinistic Crud we can at least enjoy a hot cup of coffee and set this delinquent ancient criminal aside for a moment and reflect in the sweetness of the pure word of God. Hum Bug on John Calvin, Jacob Arminius, and all the crazy ones of the past and some of the present.

Tonic for the day. Be happy, smile, completely cast yourself upon the Lord. The song that comes to my mind is "When we walk with the Lord"

Click this and listen and set back and meditate in the Lord.

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/r/trstobey.htm

As you listen you can read it too. Take time to fellowship with the Lord this morning too.

When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.
Refrain
Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.
Not a shadow can rise, not a cloud in the skies,
But His smile quickly drives it away;
Not a doubt or a fear, not a sigh or a tear,
Can abide while we trust and obey.
Refrain
Not a burden we bear, not a sorrow we share,
But our toil He doth richly repay;
Not a grief or a loss, not a frown or a cross,
But is blessed if we trust and obey.
Refrain
But we never can prove the delights of His love
Until all on the altar we lay;
For the favor He shows, for the joy He bestows,
Are for them who will trust and obey.
Refrain
Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet.
Or we’ll walk by His side in the way.
What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
Never fear, only trust and obey.
Refrain

 

[psalms109:31]

preordained

Those who have been preordained to eternal life is those who remain in Jesus.

Let Jesus help you in your unbelief.

Do not lean on your own understanding trust in Jesus and He will lead you.

If you put your trust in Jesus you will not be disappointed. Jesus is the one who was preordained to crush the serpents head, so remain in Him your salvation.

 

[skypair]

Gordon

Bring it on, bro!

Why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Those who have been preordained to eternal life is those who remain in Jesus.

Let Jesus help you in your unbelief.

Do not lean on your own understanding trust in Jesus and He will lead you.

If you put your trust in Jesus you will not be disappointed. Jesus is the one who was preordained to crush the serpents head, so remain in Him your salvation.

Good post, Psa!

BTW, "Let Jesus help you in your unbelief" is good advice. You remember the man who begged Jesus for that? He didn't say, "I have faith, help thou my faith" did he? Cause faith given to us upon our BELIEF in Christ is ETERNAL -- but our belief (being able to understand the things we hear even from God) need 'helping,' don't they?

Just like we got help from the Holy Spirit when we first believed and prayed for salvation, just so we need His help every day for our unbelief!

skypair

 

[skypair]

pinoy

Many Calvinists won't go to hell for the simple reason that they are "theoretical" Calvinists but not "practical" Calvinists.

Many of them came to Jesus in the way that the Bible calls for (my pastor-nephew included).

And they wanted to know all they could about God and Christ. Wonderful! :godisgood:

Then they went to a "Systematic Theology" class (used to be called "Reform Dogma" until the thought of believing something just because a Reformer said it - that's the "dogma" part of the title - became repulsive!).

Anyway, they learned stuff that just ain't so. But it WAS cleverly wrapped with it's own terminology (TULIP) and specifications (all, whosoever, etc. only refer to the "elect," for instance). The Bible writers either meant to use those former terms or didn't really mean to use those latter terms but they were unlearned (apparently hadn't studied Calvinism :laugh: ).

Well, that was a sufficient theology for getting people out of Catholicism and into their Bibles, but it really was only a "small step for mankind" in the right direction.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

Are you capable of defending your view from the Scripture and backing it up with accepted definition of words. Support your "trash talk" with "fact talk"

... List a Scripture and explain why you see it as you do.

When you Calvinist pop off at the mouth as you are it is good because it shows your outlandish extreme in which the lot of you go to dance around truth and facts.

...

What exactly in the quote to Blammo is trash talk? I have died to self and trusted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Is that what you think is trash talk? Do you have a problem with a calvinist being saved? You really need to get back on your meds.

Gordon, do you always get manic when someone asks a question you can not answer? I'll ask again, how is your view not fatalism?

 

[reformedbeliever]

You will notice that when Gordon is called down on his faulty isogesis, and asked a simple question about his view (notice how the op is the simple un-adulterated truth) he gets defensive and starts calling names. Why is that Gordon? Can you answer a simple queston with the simple un-adulterated truth? If God simply forseen who would believe and elected them based upon foresight of what they would do, could those he foresaw not believe have a chance to be saved? Not if he foresaw them not believing.

Here is the senario. God foresaw Gordon not believing. God elected Gordon to hell for not believing. Gordon was born and could not have a chance to be saved because God foresaw Gordon not believe. Poor Gordon. That is fatalism.

The Calvinist view is that God had a loving relationship with those whom He *foreknew*. This knowledge is an intimate knowledge such as you would have with your spouse... except in a divine manner. God foreknew you and elected you due to His special love for you. Happy Valentines Day!

 

[skypair]

Reformbeliever

First, your Q: to gordon is very easy. Free will is not fatalism because we can control our eternal destiny -- YOU CAN'T, can you.

If God simply forseen who would believe and elected them based upon foresight of what they would do, could those he foresaw not believe have a chance to be saved? Not if he foresaw them not believing.

Sure he could -- another day. We were ALL unbelievers once, weren't we? Again you only countenance "foresee" as "predestine," reform.

Here is the senario. God foresaw Gordon not believing. God elected Gordon to hell for not believing. Gordon was born and could not have a chance to be saved because God foresaw Gordon not believe. Poor Gordon. That is fatalism.

Not at all! Gordon had a choice. He was not bound by what God forsaw just because you see "foreknow" as God choosing or not choosing Gordon!

The Calvinist view is that God had a loving relationship with those whom He *foreknew*.

How sweet! But according to the free will, biblical view, He had the "loving relationship" only with believers whom He foresaw before creation. He predestined only them, in that "loving relationship," to be conformed to the image of His Son, reform. Big difference! Cause I don't find your construct of "foreknew" in scripture.

skypair

 

[pinoybaptist]

The answer to you inquirers is: If you are not saved you will bust Hell wide open. Not sure how big the splash will be, but regardless of the tag you wear there is only one way, and I have the correct understanding of it.

Say it, Gordon Slocum, and stop hiding behind words.
Say it.
What will God do with ALL Calvinists ?
Including those who are on this board ?
Be man enough and say it.

You did not start this thread to discuss the pros and cons of Calvinism.
So, say it.

 

[Andy T.]

It seems the nasty Calvinists don't have a corner on arrogance after all. Gordon is filling that corner quite well.

 

[Dale-c]

All John Calvin is to Calvinist is a Pope. No difference. Calvinist worship Calvin as Catholics do the Pope.

And you, sir, are a liar, and a bearer of false witness.
Must I remind you of Exodus 20?
Thou Shalt NOT bear FALSE WITNESS against thy neighbor.
That is exactly what you have done with that statement!

 

[MB]

Hi Amity;

Ephesians 1 might have something to do with that belief: "4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

You interestingly forgot to add the particular election proof. You see we are all chosen in Him because He died for the whole world.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Notice it says might be saved not will be.
Eph 1 Never says only a few of some preselect group of special people was chosen in Him but John certainly does show, it was the world Christ died for. He never came to save anyone but the lost. If you're already His, then your not lost but, already found.

Well, that seems a rather odd metaphor for God to choose then, because generally children or sheep are not such because of choice. So God probably understands why we take it to mean that the choice is His.

It's only odd to those who claim they are His before they are. Being chosen doesn't mean you are His but can be. We are chosen to Salvation not throught it. When Christ died He died for the whole world that whosoever believed in Him would have eternal life. There is nothing particular about the "Whosoever's".

I am not sure anyone is disputing this. Yes, the unregenerate elect are just like everyone else... except that they are elect. They are no less sinners, for example.

True but you haven't shown in scripture where only a few are elect. When the Bible clearly states that it is God's will that all men be saved.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If Christ didn't die for all men then His will is nullified. Don't you agree?
MB

 

[Dale-c]

So if you as a Follower of John Calvin the persecutor of and murder of other Believers - a historical fact - are really saved in spite of your false doctrine then you are appointed to heaven Acts 13:48.

More false witness!

Must I remind you again of your violation of the 9th commandment?

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

2 Timothy 2:22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

1 Timothy 4
Instructions to Timothy
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

 

[MB]

Hi Psalms 109;31

2 Timothy 2:22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

1 Timothy 4
Instructions to Timothy
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

Good scriptures for believers to go by. AMEN
MB

 

[amity]

John Calvin the persecutor of and murder of other Believers - a historical fact - are really saved in spite of your false doctrine then you are appointed to heaven Acts 13:48.

Don't you just love it. Lets all sing "Just As I AM" I know that drives you Calvinist Crazy.

I am a little bewildered that you would think a Calvinist would have a particular problem with "Just as I am." Charlotte Elliot was an Arminian, I think, but that song is based on the scripture John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." which has long been a proof text for Calvinist soteriology. It is a very similar song to Rock of Ages, written again by Toplady, which is a classic 'Calvinist hymn':

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When my eye-strings break in death,
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.

Plus I certainly do not see Calvin as a major persecutor of "other believers." The only person executed for heresy during his tenure in Geneva was Servetus, and everyone was gunning for him! It was not a particularly enlightened age (tongue in cheek) but Calvin was relatively benign compared to other religious leaders of his age.

 

[GordonSlocum]

I am a little bewildered that you would think a Calvinist would have a particular problem with "Just as I am." Charlotte Elliot was an Arminian, I think, but that song is based on the scripture John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." which has long been a proof text for Calvinist soteriology. It is a very similar song to Rock of Ages, written again by Toplady, which is a classic 'Calvinist hymn':

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When my eye-strings break in death,
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.

Plus I certainly do not see Calvin as a major persecutor of "other believers." The only person executed for heresy during his tenure in Geneva was Servetus, and everyone was gunning for him! It was not a particularly enlightened age (tongue in cheek) but Calvin was relatively benign compared to other religious leaders of his age.

I am delighted to know that at least one Calvinist can ascribe to this great Hymn. God Bless You.

http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/j/j257.html

 

[amity]

If Christ didn't die for all men then His will is nullified. Don't you agree?
MB

No, I do not agree. If Christ died for someone who is going to hell, and the Bible says clearly that some are, then both Christ and the sinner will have paid the price for that person's sin. That to me does not make sense... that Christ should suffer and die for someone's sin and that person not be saved. Then His will would truly be nullified.

Here is the way I understand the passages that refer to "the world." Let's say I love San Antonio, my hometown. That does not necessarily mean I love everyone who lives there. And God tells us very specifically that He does not love everyone. In fact, He "hated" someone who had not even been born!

The Bible makes clear that we, those who love the Lord, are not of this world. That we are not to love the things of the world. Yet we are "the light of the world!"

And you lose what little remains of your credibility when you baldly state that Calvinists worship Calvin! In my chuch his name is never even mentioned.

 

[donnA]

When the Bible clearly states that it is God's will that all men be saved.

Then explain if it is His will, why all are not saved. Either theres something wrong with that thought , of all are equally called and none are specifically chosen, or the scriptures are wrong here. you decide which. Becasue it can't be both, becasue obviously, all are not saved.
If Jesus died for the whole world to be equally called to Him, none were chosen, then His death is in vain, as not all He died for are saved.
Being choosen means you are His, He has picked you already, not that you can be His.

 

[psalms109:31]

Salvation

God wants all men to be saved, that is a calling for us to reach out to the world, but it is only those who put the trust in the Lord, that the Lord will direct to salvation.

Until you are willing to give up on yourself and only trust in God through Jesus to lead you, you are just going your own way.

The wages of our sin death, so we can't save ourselves.

Our only hope is Jesus.