psalms109:31 said:
Which brings us back to if God is able to speak stars and universes into existence because He wants to, then why are not all men saved if He wants all men saved ?
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Plain, Simple, Un-adulterated Easy to Understand Truth
- Thread starter GordonSlocum
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Which brings us back to if God is able to speak stars and universes into existence because He wants to, then why are not all men saved if He wants all men saved ?
By the way, Gordon Slocum, I will not let you go until you answer the question.
What will God do with all Calvinists whom He will judge according to the Scripture you quoted ?
Why and what for will God judge them ?
To send them to Hell ?
What will God do with all Calvinists whom He will judge according to the Scripture you quoted ?
Why and what for will God judge them ?
To send them to Hell ?
It isn't about what it is to you. it's about what it is to the whole world. The Bible clearly states that He died for the whole world. You can either believe it or not. That argument is with God not me.amity said:
You have to remember that Esau was dead when Christ died. Christ even prayed for those who crucified Him. He prayed for God to for give them.amity said:
True and I'm hoping you'll see the light of scripture.amity said:
I believe you are mistaken. I never said such a thing. As far as credibility you really loose it when you falsely make such accusations. If you would please show me the post you are referring to I'd like to see it. What you have said isn't true at all. I have a question though. Why does it seem that some Calvinist are more interested in slandering those with whom they disagree with out right false accusations. You're not slandering me but your own self with such rage. When Christians show an inability of self control they show their own immaturity.amity said:
MB
psalms109:31
Active Member
pinoybaptist said:
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
rsr said:
Who's calling who names, sir ?
psalms109:31 said:
National Israel is a nation created by God to typify the true Israel and to show how He deals with those who are His own. Paul writes to the Roman church, a body called out from the world of that time, made up of both Jew and Gentile elect, that whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope. (Romans 15:4) He reiterates this teaching to the Corinthian gentiles in 1 Corinthians 10:11, the context of which he was speaking about the chastisement of national Israel for disobeying and displeasing God.
Therefore, if at all, the Old Testament Scripture you are quoting here does not pertain to life and death in the eternal sense but addresses the timely salvation of a Christian, blessings and curses which affect not only himself but those he loves such as his immediate family.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Jesus hope for all men
What we must realize all scripture points to Jesus.
He is the one we depend on.
We search the scripture hoping that there is life in them, but it all points to Jesus.
He is the hope for the world not election.
Elected Jews shows that our hope does not lie on election, because the were cut out for unbelief, but our hope lies in God through Jesus.
One day we will lift up Jesus not election and He will draw all men to Himself.
Jesus is your hope trust in Him and you will not be disappointed.
When we look into the world we should be moved with compassion for them for they do have a hope and His name is Jesus.
What we must realize all scripture points to Jesus.
He is the one we depend on.
We search the scripture hoping that there is life in them, but it all points to Jesus.
He is the hope for the world not election.
Elected Jews shows that our hope does not lie on election, because the were cut out for unbelief, but our hope lies in God through Jesus.
One day we will lift up Jesus not election and He will draw all men to Himself.
Jesus is your hope trust in Him and you will not be disappointed.
When we look into the world we should be moved with compassion for them for they do have a hope and His name is Jesus.
psalms109:31 said:
No one is lifting up election here. Not the Calvinists, not me. Election is a doctrine we believe to be clearly taught by the Scriptures. You don't believe election is a doctrine taught by Scriptures. Fine.
We believe God elected a definite number of people, and that this too is clearly taught in Scriptures.
You don't believe that, fine again.
Either way, both of us believe Jesus is Savior, Lord, Creator, God, Redeemer, Mediator, the Lamb of Glory.
Either way, both of us believe that the Blood of the Lamb washes away all sin, washed away all sin, and will continue to wash away all sin of His people until such time when sin is no more, and all His are back in glory with Him where they truly belong.
It's fine to discuss Scripture, and hopefully we both learn from each other.
Sometimes the discussion gets all het up and cat-calling or the equivalent of it creeps in. That is not fine.
But what is way beyond NOT FINE AT ALL is when someone hints that because the other believes this way then he is not saved, could not have been saved, and may never be saved at all, and then post Scripture to drive home that point, such as Gordon Slocum did.
I don't know if the Calvinists here believe that because one is Arminian one is hopelessly lost unless he becomes a Calvinist, but I don't think any of them think that way.
I certainly don't, because to me theology is earth-bound, that is, theology is something that stays on this fallen earth, and the theologies that abound and confuses others are there because of the enemy, Satan, whose sole purpose in existence is to deflect true worship from God to himself.
Therefore, it is my personal belief that when God foreknew and loved His people, He knew exactly where they will be, who they are, when they will be born, and what theology they will be holding to if at all, and guess what ?
It didn't matter to Him because saved them because He had mercy on them and He had mercy on them, and them only, because that is what He wanted, therefore He sent them a Savior, a kinsman redeemer, whom He caused to be born in due time, but whose blood was shed in eternity past before time.
And, yes, even Gordon Slocum might be one of His own.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Election
I believe in election, but God choose those who are in Christ, He didn't choose to save anyone apart from Jesus.
The amout going to be saved will be like the sands of the sea shore, but the workers will be few.
I believe in election, but God choose those who are in Christ, He didn't choose to save anyone apart from Jesus.
The amout going to be saved will be like the sands of the sea shore, but the workers will be few.
GordonSlocum
New Member
psalms109:31 said:
That is the "REAL" key to the issue. Christ was, in the plan of God, was crucified before the foundation of the world. That is why I believe in election too.
The interesting thing that Calvinist do not want to deal with is the fact that in God's plan He provided for the sin of man kind before He created the world. Adam had not been created yet we are told in the Bible that Christ was killed from the foundation of the world.
Because we are in Christ, we too are saved from the foundation of the world. God sees us in Christ. That is how and why and because etc - God foresees and acts accordingly before He created. According to clear statements in the Scripture Calvinism is false.
God sees us believe
God Elects us in Christ
We are as secure as Christ is.
That is real eternal security.
The Arminians are closer to the total truth than Calvinist. Calvinist are about 90 to 95 percent in error, but Arminians only about 10 percent. They error on the Eternal Security issue mainly.
GordonSlocum
New Member
pinoybaptist said:
In pure Southern Lingo, aint got anything to do with you or Calvin. You got it all wrong. It is all about the truth from Scripture. Your title won't save you. God will send a lost Calvinist to hell as fast as He will send a lost Arminian to Hell. You can be what you want to be in name, but if you are not saved according to the Scripture (1) repent and believe - your part and ; (2) God's part - He regenerates / saves / indwells / converts / seals / etc. you get the picture.
That is as simple as it gets. Do you consider yourself to be a Calvinist? If so then that will not save you. So, you can be what you want to be in name and if you are not saved but a Calvinist you will spend eternity in the lake of fire. In my opinion there will be Calvinist in Heaven and In Hell. I believe that will be true of all labels of all ages.
That is about as clear as it gets.
GordonSlocum
New Member
pinoybaptist said:
Free Will - Man is free to make the decision to believe or not. That is what Grace is all about. God loves you and He is not going to make the decision for you. You must decide if you want to trust Him or not. Trust Him you get saved, don't trust Him you go to hell.
GordonSlocum
New Member
Dale-c said:
Sorry you are so mad and upset. Let me ask you a question: Can you find in any of my post where I rely on a given dead man or living man to support my views? Good Luck in looking. You won't find it.
However, Calvinist or followers of Calvin, you decide, can't hardly open their mouth without "Calvin" somehow, someway coming out.
Why not just rely on the Bible? If by chance or by fate you come to the same wrong conclusions as Calvin so be it. In my book that is not good but I can't tell you what to believe and you must come to your own conclusions on your own.
So, why get upset over a person who taught false doctrine, even if you think it is correct?
I am assuming you are saved. If that is the case and I want to believe that - then why not focus on Christ, the Scripture and forget about false prophets and spurious teachers and miss guided souls regardless of intention of the past. Do you really need any of them to lean on.
I really have a problem with so many followers of Calvin because that is to me and so many others the Pope of your view. It really does come across to a bunch of us that way.
Not all of us, but the majority of us don't go around saying this about John, Jack, or Joe. Who cares about them. If they were OK fine if not then there is nothing we can do for them now.
So, why not stand on your own and talk about Scripture and forget these dead false teachers in the Calvinist camp, Arminian Camp and all Camps.
Sure read and study their writings but let it go. Now that you have studied all the different views in all the theology books you can find and you have studied hard and deliberate - set back and rake them over the coals and do your own work.
You will somewhere along the path of study identify more with some that others but make it your own.
Don't you think the conversation would be much more fruitful to discuss the Bible and not Calvin, Calvin, Calvin, Calvin, and more Calvin. Don't you get tired of being Calvin’s step child?
Again it may be that you and him wind up in the same boat. That does happen unfortunately.
I hope that helps.
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GordonSlocum said:
You are evading the issue, Gordon Slocum.
Your OP was sweeping.
You said :
"At or upon the last day when all Calvinist are passed from this life you will face God and this verse will be there as your judge."
All is all, and some is some, unless Southern Lingo don't mean what it says.
Now you're saying some Calvinist will be in Heaven, yet your post says that if one holds on to Calvinism, then he will be judged, so how come there are Calvinists in heaven ?
Looks like you're too confused about this issue you don't know which is your nose and which is your forehead, or are you looking for a more graceful way to exit out of the corner you've painted yourself into.
Which is which ?
Again, I ask you, in line with your post, the logical question is:
What will God do with ALL Calvinists ? Not some, not a few, but ALL.
All includes the Calvinists on this board.
All includes Dr. Kennedy, whom according to you, is one Calvinist you respect.
All includes Charles Spurgeon, Augustus Toplady, and John Newton.
All is all, and some is some, and never the twain shall meet.
Are ALL these hellbound because they will face God and the Scriptures you quoted one day ?
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Gordon, if you spent anytime reading and listenting to the posts on this Board, you will find that most, if not all, of those who hold to the Doctrines of Grace did not come to those beliefs through reading John Calvin, but through the study of the Scriptures. I've never read Calvin. I've heard many others like me say the same thing.
Of course, learning that about others requires that you listen to the other posts on this Board. All you seem to do is shout down the [evil] opposition.
Of course, learning that about others requires that you listen to the other posts on this Board. All you seem to do is shout down the [evil] opposition.
Brandon C. Jones
New Member
I'll admit to lurking on here today. Gordon, unless I am mistaken, it is usually those who oppose "calvinism" that initiate John Calvin talk in recent threads that I have seen. Then when people want to defend the historical slur posted by others they get charged with following a "pope" and not thinking for themselves. How fair is that? I can't think of one thread that I've participated in where I've initiated talk about John Calvin. Prove me wrong if you have the time.
I think the genetic fallacy lies behind all of this. This is typical of something like Dave Hunt's approach. If John Calvin was bad, then calvinism is bad. Even if John Calvin was bad the genetic fallacy disproves your argument. Furthermore, it's certainly arguable that John Calvin "invented" what is known as calvinism-in fact that's historically false; it also remains to be proven that anyone believes in what is known as calvinism because of Calvin's life and testimony. But the more frustrating part is that he really wasn't all that bad in comparison to his contemporaries (lookup Zwingli's treatment of local Anabaptists), but people bash him anyways who claim to not care about dead people.
Why not stick to Scripture and Christ and leave this genetic argument alone? If it's any motivation you'll see a lot less of my posts on this board trying to set the record straight.
PS-The Reformed tradition has never viewed Calvin as the be all and end all of Reformed theology. He was a figure in a greater movement, an important one, but one of many like him and after him.
I think the genetic fallacy lies behind all of this. This is typical of something like Dave Hunt's approach. If John Calvin was bad, then calvinism is bad. Even if John Calvin was bad the genetic fallacy disproves your argument. Furthermore, it's certainly arguable that John Calvin "invented" what is known as calvinism-in fact that's historically false; it also remains to be proven that anyone believes in what is known as calvinism because of Calvin's life and testimony. But the more frustrating part is that he really wasn't all that bad in comparison to his contemporaries (lookup Zwingli's treatment of local Anabaptists), but people bash him anyways who claim to not care about dead people.
Why not stick to Scripture and Christ and leave this genetic argument alone? If it's any motivation you'll see a lot less of my posts on this board trying to set the record straight.
PS-The Reformed tradition has never viewed Calvin as the be all and end all of Reformed theology. He was a figure in a greater movement, an important one, but one of many like him and after him.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
salvation
Jesus was not sent to the world to condemn it but to save it and He is still doing it through us His messenger.
We can either get on God's plan our go our own way.
I will not condemn any of you, but give you the same hope I have. Jesus!!!
Who can save me from this body of death praise be to Jesus.
1 Peter 3:15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
2 Corinthians 5:16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
Jesus was not sent to the world to condemn it but to save it and He is still doing it through us His messenger.
We can either get on God's plan our go our own way.
I will not condemn any of you, but give you the same hope I have. Jesus!!!
Who can save me from this body of death praise be to Jesus.
1 Peter 3:15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
2 Corinthians 5:16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
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