Via the curse resulting from Adam's transgression.
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- Thread starter convicted1
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Me
You are approaching this entire discussion through the lens of his teaching.convicted1
Guest
Again, how did we get the curse without the sin of Adam?
Who said we didn't? I've said just that on numerous occasions.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Stop skipping to chapter 5..........
Read chapters 1 and 2.
Since you (after having done so) will still see everything only through the lens of chapter 5..........
Read chapters 1 and 2 AGAIN....
They HAD THE LAW, not the Mosaic Law, but they had law sufficient to condemn....it's right there in the first part of the book.
Read it.
Read it slowly.
Rom 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21
Because that, when they knew God,
Rom 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Rom 2:1
[B]Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. [/B]
They didn't have the MOSAIC Law....(because it didn't apply to them).
It never did.
The Mosaic Law does not now, never has, and never will pertain to gentiles.
But God's Moral Law and precepts were ALWAYS known by all men Jew and Gentile alike.
You seem so quick to see "Antinomianism" behind any bush, and lurking behind every tree...... and yet you are incapable of seeing that the moral Law is clearly spelled out 3 chapters earlier.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Again...........
The same way a goldfish does...
How do you not get that?
Here's a syllogism to make it easy:
If C= Curse and G=goldfish and A=Adam
A Gave C to all
Goldfish are a subset of All
C= curse of death
Therefore G suffer/receive the C
That's really all there is to it.
Adam brought death to everyone, everything, the entire Universe.
Adam brought death to Antelopes.
Antelopes now die, and Adam is the reason for it.
He didn't pass down his Guilt through his Ribonucleic Acid to antelopes..........
That would be stupid and kinda creepy and disgusting.....
But they still suffer the Curse:
Only SLIGHTLY less stupid creepy and disgusting is this pagan superstition that he passed down his guilt through his Ribonucleic Acid to his human progeny......
it's less creepy and stupid,
but it's sheer medievalism at best.
convicted1
Guest
Again, a goldfish and antelopes, whales, lions and tigers and bears, oh my...:smilewinkgrin:, ostriches, minks, seals, otters, flies, mosquitoes, squirrells, moles, sharks, octopi, were not made imago dei, only Adam was. Major difference. There's no way plausible for a goldfish...or any of the others I mentioned... to "take hold of the Tree of Life and live". Only Adam did, and once he sinned, God thrust him out of there....
If babies die sinless, you have people going to heaven without the blood of Christ....
If babies die sinless, you have people going to heaven without the blood of Christ....
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Inspector Javert
Active Member
convicted1
Guest
I don't think animals would have lived forever even if Adam never sinned, because they didn't have access to the Tree of Life. So your point about animals dying is moot.
The curse only has power because it was ushered in via sin. Adam was our representative, our figure head, our image bearer. When he sinned, eventhough he was made imago dei, he marred that image. We are made in the image of Adam...see Seth...Gen. 5:3...and Adam is now the marred imago dei.
You can read where there is no Law, there is no transgression(Romans 4:15). Again, how did those from Adam to Moses....which had no Law to impute to themselves their sins....die? Adam's sin, Adam's guilt had to be imputed to them if they died w/o the Law. That's why babies die in the womb. They did not sin, yet they died.
Babies don't know right from wrong, yet they sin. They lie, steal, are self-centered, greedy, etc. Yet, they don't know they're sinning before God, and God doesn't impute their sins to them. Blessed is the man unto whom God does not impute sin.(Psalms 32:2 & Romans 8:8)
Look at it like this. A toddler accidently shoots and kills their sibling. Did they kill them? Yes. But no court will prosecute and convict them due to the fact of them not being knowledgeable of what they did. Killing is worthy of death, but they do not impute this crime to them based on their lack of knowledge. That is why babies get to heaven.
convicted1
Guest
Here's a passage for you blokes to chew on...
"And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin("Sound familiar? Psalms 32:2 & Romans 4:8??"); thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."(2 Samuel 12:1-14)
This baby, through no fault of himself, died due to David's and Bathsheba's sin. Again, if we aren't imputed Adam's guilt, we are not imputed Christ's righteousness...
"And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin("Sound familiar? Psalms 32:2 & Romans 4:8??"); thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."(2 Samuel 12:1-14)
This baby, through no fault of himself, died due to David's and Bathsheba's sin. Again, if we aren't imputed Adam's guilt, we are not imputed Christ's righteousness...
Convicted
You know as well as I do we all have been appointed to die once. All die even those who have God in their hearts. David died and went to hell. Ps.16:10 but he wasn't left there. The child didn't die because of David's sin. No where in scripture does it say we die because of Adam's sin.
Before the sin of Adam He too was appointed to die once, But he was allowed to eat of the tree of life to continue to live as long as He ate of it. Which is why God kept him from it after he sinned.
MB
You know as well as I do we all have been appointed to die once. All die even those who have God in their hearts. David died and went to hell. Ps.16:10 but he wasn't left there. The child didn't die because of David's sin. No where in scripture does it say we die because of Adam's sin.
Before the sin of Adam He too was appointed to die once, But he was allowed to eat of the tree of life to continue to live as long as He ate of it. Which is why God kept him from it after he sinned.
MB
savedbymercy
New Member
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And why is it that all mankind do not follow that same course?
Why do some choose light, life, the Gospel, salvation while others reject?
Why do some choose to "open the door" of Rev 3 while others ignore the One who "STANDS at the door and knocks?".
According to 4 and/or 5 point Calvinism?
indeed - why do some reject - while others accept.
Here is a huge gap in Calvinism that has never been solved.
Convicted will help all to see that gap in his post below.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In the prior post the point is made that the new birth - regeneration (arbitrary selection) takes place first - then the lost sinner is allowed/enabled to choose life for indeed he is already born again - already arbitrarily selected out.
The problem then is that this makes God the "author of His own lament" when He laments about the lost "What MORE could I HAVE done than what was done?" - God does not say "What more could you have done that you have not already done" to the lost, because God knows full well what they could have done... they could have accepted the Gospel. So God asks "what could I HAVE done that I did not already do"?
For the Arminian the answer is as the text implies "nothing - Lord you did all - nothing more you could have done" -- but in Calvinism the answer is very different.
Calvinism - says it knows exactly what God failed to do -- thus Calvinism answers God's Lament saying that God is the author of His own lament and God knows full well "What He could have done" that was not already done in the case of those who resist/refuse the Gospel.
In Calvinism He knew He could have done for the lost - what He did for the saved. - but that answer is never given ...in the actual Bible.
God never says "you are lost because I did not cause you to be saved".
in Christ,
Bob
The problem then is that this makes God the "author of His own lament" when He laments about the lost "What MORE could I HAVE done than what was done?" - God does not say "What more could you have done that you have not already done" to the lost, because God knows full well what they could have done... they could have accepted the Gospel. So God asks "what could I HAVE done that I did not already do"?
For the Arminian the answer is as the text implies "nothing - Lord you did all - nothing more you could have done" -- but in Calvinism the answer is very different.
Calvinism - says it knows exactly what God failed to do -- thus Calvinism answers God's Lament saying that God is the author of His own lament and God knows full well "What He could have done" that was not already done in the case of those who resist/refuse the Gospel.
In Calvinism He knew He could have done for the lost - what He did for the saved. - but that answer is never given ...in the actual Bible.
God never says "you are lost because I did not cause you to be saved".
in Christ,
Bob
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