Please Explain 1 John 2 "Jesus propiation For Sins Of Whole World!"

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Then why are all not saved?

 

[percho]

You did mean to say ACCEPT didn't you? Except means the opposite.

Thank you, yes Accept.

 

[Amy.G]

Then why are all not saved?

Because not all believe. There a two things required for salvation.
1. An atonement for sin to appease God's wrath that we may receive mercy.
2. Faith in the only begotten Son of God and the atonement that He made.

Study the OT day of atonement. It's a shadow of Christ's atonement. It was meant to point to Christ and was done until Christ came to earth and died for all on the cross.

 

[Rippon]

Paul told everyone who heard him that Jesus died for them.

Prove it from the Word of God. You did not demonstrate it from Acts 13.

If you preach something else you are preaching another gospel and are accursed. A very serious warning.

Some of the greatest preachers/evangelists/soul winners/theologians have taught that Jesus did not die for all without exception --but for all with no distinction.

Would you like to personally cast George Whitefield,Charles Spurgeon,James Packer and many others into the Lake of Fire?

You really need to review Galatians 1 and recant your rash words.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Because not all believe. There a two things required for salvation.
1. An atonement for sin to appease God's wrath that we may receive mercy.
2. Faith in the only begotten Son of God and the atonement that He made.

Study the OT day of atonement. It's a shadow of Christ's atonement. It was meant to point to Christ and was done until Christ came to earth and died for all on the cross.

I need to understand this....your telling me that you consider atonement more of an "appeasement" Then your saying the atonement becomes actualized when & if the sinner repents of their sin & believes on Jesus? Am I correct?

 

[percho]

God takes the initiative. It's not "except" is it?

Well in reality the one looking him in the face was the initiative for God sent him.
According to some it is now the move of the one who's face was looked into, to accept Christ thereby becoming a sheep and then the blood applying. Got it right this time. Thanks Winman.

IMHO it isn't a game of chess. God's move, our move, God's move.......

I believe God moves and the one he moves on hears and follows.

Paul was going down the road, not knowing he was a sheep, to imprison
Christians. He heard the voice of the Lord and followed in belief.

I wonder what enabled him to hear and or see?

 

[freeatlast]

Then why are all not saved?

After the civil war all the slaves were set free, however not all left their slave holders. Unless man turns to Christ for the freedom He has acquired for them they remain slaves.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Im just trying to focus on the possible conclusions one can draw & I have heard 3 in these discussions & other discussions on this forum.

1. Jesus Christ's death was an actual atonement for the sin of all people with the result that all people are saved. I believe this is the unilateralist answer but since the Bible clearly says that some will not be saved, I think we can dismiss it as false.

2. that Christs death was not an actual atonement as all....rather an appeasement to God IE its only something that makes atonement possible. Now the 2nd step to it is as follows.....The atonement only becomes actual when the sinner repents & believes on Jesus. (see Amy's earlier explanation above)

3. Christs death was an actual atonement for the sins of God's elect people with the result that these, and only these, are delivered from sins penalty..

For me anyway, it's the 3rd choice because I see it in reading my Bible & you have read my testimony. I see the term "Redemption" used many times in the Bible ...... & Ive looked it up.....it means to "Buy Back" .... for example, you see it in Galatians 3:13 & 1 Peter 1:18-19.

Now I wish to ask a very serious & hopefully thought provoking question to everyone reading this post.... one that always bothered me .... What kind of redemption would it be in which the death of Jesus Christ only makes redemption possible and in which, as a result, some of those for whom He died are still in bondage?

I ask again....what kind of redemption is it if people are still in bondage? If there is REAL REDEMPTION, then the person who is redeemed must be set free. When the bible says that Jesus Christ redeemed us by His death on the cross, then that redemption must be an effective redemption, and those who have been redeemed must be actual beneficiaries of it. That is my prospective on the subject matter.

 

[freeatlast]

Im just trying to focus on the possible conclusions one can draw & I have heard 3 in these discussions & other discussions on this forum.

1. Jesus Christ's death was an actual atonement for the sin of all people with the result that all people are saved. I believe this is the unilateralist answer but since the Bible clearly says that some will not be saved, I think we can dismiss it as false.

2. that Christs death was not an actual atonement as all....rather an appeasement to God IE its only something that makes atonement possible. Now the 2nd step to it is as follows.....The atonement only becomes actual when the sinner repents & believes on Jesus. (see Amy's earlier explanation above)

3. Christs death was an actual atonement for the sins of God's elect people with the result that these, and only these, are delivered from sins penalty..

For me anyway, it's the 3rd choice because I see it in reading my Bible & you have read my testimony. I see the term "Redemption" used many times in the Bible ...... & Ive looked it up.....it means to "Buy Back" .... for example, you see it in Galatians 3:13 & 1 Peter 1:18-19.

Now I wish to ask a very serious & hopefully thought provoking question to everyone reading this post.... one that always bothered me .... What kind of redemption would it be in which the death of Jesus Christ only makes redemption possible and in which, as a result, some of those for whom He died are still in bondage?

I ask again....what kind of redemption is it if people are still in bondage? If there is REAL REDEMPTION, then the person who is redeemed must be set free. When the bible says that Jesus Christ redeemed us by His death on the cross, then that redemption must be an effective redemption, and those who have been redeemed must be actual beneficiaries of it. That is my prospective on the subject matter.

I have not read every post on this but has some actually said that all people are saved because of what Christ did or are you just falsely accusing someone of saying that by changing their words to support your view? Please supply a post or link where someone says all people are saved.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have not read every post on this but has some actually said that all people are saved because of what Christ did or are you just falsely accusing someone of saying that by changing their words to support your view? Please supply a post or link where someone says all people are saved.

Take the effort & read the posts. Im not falsely accusing anyone. Where do you come up with such nonsense?

 

[freeatlast]

Take the effort & read the posts. Im not falsely accusing anyone. Where do you come up with such nonsense?

I will go back and try and read them. However I did not accuse you, I asked you if that was what you were doing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I will go back and try and read them. However I did not accuse you, I asked you if that was what you were doing.

Brother....there is an individual on this forum that is an avowed universalist & defends those views. This individual has not posted on this particular thread but is active on here. These are this individuals views but I do not wish to make that person the straw man in the conversation....I merely gave you the 3 viewpoints & I believe every Christian on here chooses one of those 3 positions. So they are up for debate.

 

[freeatlast]

Brother....there is an individual on this forum that is an avowed universalist & defends those views. This individual has not posted on this particular thread but is active on here. These are this individuals views but I do not wish to make that person the straw man in the conversation....I merely gave you the 3 viewpoints & I believe every Christian on here chooses one of those 3 positions. So they are up for debate.

Thank you for clarifying your intent. I have now went back and read the posts although quickly and I found no one saying that because of the work of Christ all were saved. What I found was that some are saying what scripture says and that is He takes away the sin of the world. That does not mean all are saved. I make that point because many times I have been purposely misquoted and had what I said changed to make it sound different then what was intended so as to help boaster another view or make an accusation.
I just think we need to be very careful in saying another said something when they do not. Using their exact words and not reading into them is the only way to handle a debate in a Christ like manner.
To sum up, Taking away the sin of the world was a one sided event on the part of Christ which does not automatically instill salvation into each individual of the world. Salvation is a joint affair between God and man which requires the acceptance from man of the completed work of Christ through repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes I will not disagree that you have to come to belief however I stand by my belief that God takes a very active roll in bringing you to that position that allows you to make that decision.

 

[freeatlast]

Yes I will not disagree that you have to come to belief however I stand by my belief that God takes a very active roll in bringing you to that position that allows you to make that decision.

I can certainly agree with that. :thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Yes I will not disagree that you have to come to belief however I stand by my belief that God takes a very active roll in bringing you to that position that allows you to make that decision.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

It must be one or the other. So as not to impugn your motives, I will assume that you don't understand Calvinism. Let me explain.

Christ died for the sheep. That is Calvinism; whether you agree with it or not, that is Calvinism. If anyone suggests that He died for all men in the sense of every single person, then that person is not a Calvinist. Is that clear? I can't think how I can put it more simply.

Yet, some of the quotes I've provided show that SOME scholarly and widely respected Calvinists do say that God did die for all man in the sense that the work of Christ perfectly satisfied the demands of justice for all mankind. How many quotes must I provided to prove this point? Do you disagree with Muller, Hodge, Shedd, Dabney or are you just ignoring the point they make regarding this aspect of how God satisfies the demand for justice and thus removes the any legal impediments for all people?

It's fine to disagree with this branch of Calvinism, but to accuse me of not understanding it or to claim these scholars aren't really "Calvinistic" (when a strong argument can be made this was John Calvin's view as well) is not reasonable by any standard. Why do you think so many reformers have taken issue with the 'Princeton' Calvinistic approach to the atonement? Are you denying that there has been some level of disagreement on this point among the reformed scholars? If so, that is just a denial of the plain facts of the matter.

Shedd explains this view in detail below. Notice the first line. It is the very question being posed about our view of the atonement regarding it leading to "universalism." I agree with Shedd's answer. The area we disagree on is the means and effectuality of the condition of faith, but we agree on the provision of the atonement.

"It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the Universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is, Because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner. 'By faith are ye saved. He that believeth shall be saved,' Ephesians 2:8; Mark 16:16. The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made, but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it, would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ's death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it, as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men, therefore no men are lost, is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe, therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ conceivably, might have died precisely as he did, and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Ghost and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain. Unless his objective work is subjectively appropriated, it is useless, so far as personal salvation is concerned. Christ's suffering is sufficient to cancel the guilt of all men, and in its own nature completely satisfies the broken law. But all men do not make it their own atonement by faith in it; by pleading the merit of it in prayer, and mentioning it as the reason and ground of their pardon. They do not regard and use it as their own possession, and blessing. It is nothing for them but a historical fact. In this state of things, the atonement of Christ is powerless to save. It remains in the possession of Christ who made it, and has not been transferred to the individual. In the scripture phrase, it has not been imputed. There may be a sum of money in the hands of a rich man that is sufficient in amount to pay the debts of a million of debtors; but unless they individually take money from his hands into their own, they cannot pay their debts with it. There must be a personal act of each debtor, in order that this sum of money on deposit may actually extinguish individual indebtedness. Should one of the debtors, when payment is demanded of him, merely say that there is an abundance of money on deposit, but take no steps himself to get it and pay it to his creditor, he would be told that an undrawn deposit is not a payment of a debt." (p. 726)."Another error underlying the varieties of universalism is the assumption that because an atonement sufficient for all men has been made, all men are entitled to the benefits of it. This would be true if all men had made this atonement. But inasmuch as they had nothing to do with the making of it, they have not the slightest right or title to it. No sinner has a claim upon the expiatory oblation of Jesus Christ. It belongs entirely to the maker, and he may do what he will with his own. He may impute it to any man whom he pleases or not impute it to any man whom he pleases (Rom. 9:18). Even the act of faith does not by its intrinsic merit entitle the believer to the benefits of Christ's satisfaction. This would make salvation a debt which the Redeemer owes because of an act of the believer. It is only because Christ has promised and thereby bound himself to bestow the benefits of redemption upon everyone that believes that salvation is certain to faith.