Please Explain 1 John 2 "Jesus propiation For Sins Of Whole World!"

[freeatlast]

so would you liken it to an alcoholic hitting bottom?

If the alcoholism brings them to understand that sins the problem and not just alcohol. So If they are bottoming for their sins and not just because of alcohol addiction they will look in the right place the right way. Wanting set free from the consequences of one sin while we remain sinners holds no eternal virtue.

 

[percho]

I think that both sides hold some truth here. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Notice it does not say "sins" plural. The passage is very clear that what the Lord did was to take away the "sin" siungular, of the world. I believe that means that the seperation of man from God because of sin was taken away at the cross.

However each person has sins of their own so unless they personally come to Christ their sins will not be atoned for.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

free, methinks you are on to something. It ain't about Calvinism and Arminianism. It isn't about saving some and going to heaven and sending the others to Hell. It is about SIN. Where did it come from and when did it get here? The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Let there be light, the Lamb was already slain. Adam is not even here yet. Why? Sin. Why did God create man as a soul that could die? Why did God beget in a wo-man a man child? Sin.
The purpose of the man was not for going to heaven or going to hell but that through the soul made in the image of God that could die God could destroy death and him that has the power of death (sin), that is Satan who was already present with all the other angelic beings before Gen. 1:3.

The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

I am a gapper and I believe that SIN was in the world eons prior to Gen. 1:3.

But that's another thread yet also a part of this one.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Peter and Paul both preached the same gospel.

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

Note when Paul preached he said CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS.

Peter preached the same gospel.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Peter preached the same gospel as Paul unless you believe he was accursed. Peter told all men that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS as Paul did. But it did not profit them not being mixed with faith.

If you can't look someone in the eye and honestly tell them Jesus died for their sins, you are not preaching the same gospel as Paul and Peter and are accursed. A very fearful thing indeed.

Do you believe that everyone that Claims the Blood of Christ will be saved?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Peter and Paul both preached the same gospel.

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

Note when Paul preached he said CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS.

Peter preached the same gospel.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Peter preached the same gospel as Paul unless you believe he was accursed. Peter told all men that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS as Paul did. But it did not profit them not being mixed with faith.

If you can't look someone in the eye and honestly tell them Jesus died for their sins, you are not preaching the same gospel as Paul and Peter and are accursed. A very fearful thing indeed.

Do you believe that everyone that Claims the Blood of Christ will be saved?

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm late to this thread, but want to lob a couple of things into the mix.

Winman said:

Peter preached the same gospel as Paul unless you believe he was accursed. Peter told all men that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS as Paul did. But it did not profit them not being mixed with faith.

If you can't look someone in the eye and honestly tell them Jesus died for their sins, you are not preaching the same gospel as Paul and Peter and are accursed. A very fearful thing indeed.

Neither Peter nor Paul said "Christ died for YOUR sins."
Both said "Christ died for OUR sins."

To whom was he writing? Believers.

 

[preacher4truth]

Peter preached the same gospel as Paul unless you believe he was accursed. Peter told all men that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS as Paul did. But it did not profit them not being mixed with faith.

If you can't look someone in the eye and honestly tell them Jesus died for their sins, you are not preaching the same gospel as Paul and Peter and are accursed. A very fearful thing indeed.

More ridiculous prattle. No one on this board thinks Paul was accursed, and no one on the board preaches another Gospel and is accursed. If you're going to go make these caustic generalized statements and call others accursed you need to back it up with some proof and documentation of a false Gospel being preached. Better yet, you just need to stop such acusations altogether.

Totally unecessary language and an assumptive accusation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm late to this thread, but want to lob a couple of things into the mix.

Winman said:


Neither Peter nor Paul said "Christ died for YOUR sins."
Both said "Christ died for OUR sins."

To whom was he writing? Believers.

You would have thought that that was obvious :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

Please do & if he disagrees then we have an opportunity to debate it.:thumbsup:

Oh he won't disagree even if he disagrees. :tongue3:

He doesn't debate other calvinists.

 

[Amy.G]

Now why I wonder would a sinner want to come & atone for their sins? Can you explain how a person who obviously enjoys sin would suddenly want to stop sinning? Why would the guy for example who makes 90K net each month, drives nice cars, has his pick of many beautiful women, lives in an expensive house suddenly want to throw that all away?

First, the sinner cannot atone for his sins. Only the sinless Lamb of God can and did atone for sin.

Second, the reason a person wants to stop sinning is because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

But until the sinner is filled with the Spirit, he has no power to stop.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm late to this thread, but want to lob a couple of things into the mix.

Winman said:


Neither Peter nor Paul said "Christ died for YOUR sins."
Both said "Christ died for OUR sins."

To whom was he writing? Believers.

Winman did say "our" sins. What are you disagreeing with? And how does it prove Christ only died for a few?

 

[Winman]

I'm late to this thread, but want to lob a couple of things into the mix.

Winman said:


Neither Peter nor Paul said "Christ died for YOUR sins."
Both said "Christ died for OUR sins."

To whom was he writing? Believers.

That is not so. Paul and Peter preached the same gospel to everyone whether they believed or not, that is why I showed Heb 4:2

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Examine verse 1. How could somebody who was not promised salvation come short of it? Notice verse 2, the only reason the gospel did not profit some hearers was their unbelief, not because Jesus did not die for them.

Are you seriously trying to argue that Paul and Peter went around telling people that Jesus died for only "some" people? Show that in scripture, because I can show Paul preached that Jesus died for all that heard him.

Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Notice how Paul made it clear that he was speaking to all the Jews who were listening to him, and how these promises apply to them. Did they believe? No.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

What does Paul say in verse 26? Who did the gospel apply to? It applied to all the stock of Abraham, that is, his descendants by the flesh.

Who was Paul preaching to in verse 38? EVERYONE listening to him.

Paul told everyone who heard him that Jesus died for them. If you preach something else you are preaching another gospel and are accursed. A very serious warning.

 

[percho]

Look em in the face and say, "If you will take the initiative and except Christ as your savior you will be one of us and Christ died for our sin."

Course he may look back and ask, "What about the rest of the world?"

 

[Winman]

Look em in the face and say, "If you will take the initiative and except Christ as your savior you will be one of us and Christ died for our sin."

Course he may look back and ask, "What about the rest of the world?"

You did mean to say ACCEPT didn't you? Except means the opposite.

 

[preacher4truth]

Look em in the face and say, "If you will take the initiative and except Christ as your savior you will be one of us and Christ died for our sin."

Course he may look back and ask, "What about the rest of the world?"

God takes the initiative. It's not "except" is it?

 

[Frogman]

That would be the view of a Universalist Amy.

If Christ propitiated the sin of every single person --then they will never face the wrath of God in eternal perdition.

Instead,from among all tribes,nations and languages the Lord has propitiated the sins of His elect ones.He selected them before He created the world,He died for them at Calvary, and in their lifetimes is when He activates His propitiatory power. That is,Christ as the propitiatory sacrifice,shields and removes from them the wrath of the Father. They,and they alone,will not suffer eternal condemnation.

Explained.

John already explained it to us:

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He is speaking to the regenerate elect, "my little children"

Propitiation is properly 'the place of mercy' and carries us back to the OT mercy seat that without the sprinkling of Blood is the seat of judgment in the most holy place of the Tabernacle, then the Temple.

God told Moses that he would meet his people over and above this mercy seat, or place of Propitiation. He does not meet any other because they do not bring the shed Blood of the substitute, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

It is at this place of propitiation, Christ Jesus, where we the people of God find mercy. This is aligned with the whole teaching of Scripture on Redemption, the extent of Redemption and the purpose of Redemption. While Redemption is not Limited, it is Particular. The Life, Death and Resurrection of Christ is not sufficient for ALL men, if it were, Sufficiency in and of itself means enough for satisfaction, thus, to claim universal Sufficiency in the Atonement is to claim ALL have their sins 'satisfied' in Christ and not one will fail of justification.

So then, we see sufficiency is not a proper application of the blood. If my supper table is bare, yet sufficiently supplied to which I will prevent starvation, it may not be all that "I" want, but it is enough to sustain LIFE provided.

bro. Dallas

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Peter and Paul both preached the same gospel.

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

Note when Paul preached he said CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS.

Amen! Now whose sins are we speaking of? Paul's and the Corinthian Christians to whom he was writing. Those, 'sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints' (1Cor 1:2).

Peter preached the same gospel.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Amen again. Who is 'us'? Peter, obviously, and the 'Holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling' (Heb 3:1). The 'Them' are the unbelieving Israelites (Heb 3:16).

Peter preached the same gospel as Paul unless you believe he was accursed. Peter told all men that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS as Paul did.

Well that isn't actually what the text says, but never mind.

But it did not profit them not being mixed with faith.

Look at the text. 'For we who have believed do enter that rest' (4:3). These are the 'partakers of the heavenly calling.' They are the ones for whom Christ died. 'They,could not enter in because of unbelief' (3:19). 'They' are not the 'Holy Brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling.' They are unbelievers.

If you can't look someone in the eye and honestly tell them Jesus died for their sins, you are not preaching the same gospel as Paul and Peter and are accursed. A very fearful thing indeed.

Look all through the N.T. You will never find any Apostle telling unbelievers that Christ died for them. It is a most unwise thing to do. When I was an unbeliever at University, the guys in the Christian Union were very diligent to tell me that Jesus loved me and that He had actually died for me. I was always happy to hear this, and even prepared to believe it in an academic sort of way. After all, I'd been 'christened' as a baby, so it seemed to make some sort of sense. However, it never caused me to become a Christian. It was only twenty years later, when I realised that I was a sinner, under the righteous wrath of God, that I repented and trusted in Christ for my salvation.

Telling unsaved Christians that Jesus loves them, and/or that He died for them is hopelessly flawed evangelism. Quite apart from the fact that it may well not be true, it merely hardens folk in the belief that God will not punish them for their sins. Tell sinners the bad news! Warn them that their sins are a stink in the nostrils of a thrice-holy God, and that they need to fly to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

[Winman]

What if your friends told you that Jesus MIGHT have died for your sins, but they can't be certain? What if they told you Jesus died for only a few elect, but he "passed over" the vast majority of men? What if they told you it was impossible for you to believe unless God regenerates you, but they can't promise that will ever happen, and no amount of prayer to God can change this?

Boy, that would certainly inspire faith wouldn't it?

If Calvinists were honest, this is what they would tell people. Instead, they preach a non-Calvinistic gospel, because even Calvinists realize if they told people what they REALLY believe no one would be encouraged to believe.

You have more chance of finding a million dollars on the sidewalk than you have being elect in the Calvinist view.

 

[Tom Butler]

Look em in the face and say, "If you will take the initiative and except Christ as your savior you will be one of us and Christ died for our sin."

Course he may look back and ask, "What about the rest of the world?"

No.
You may look them in the face and say "God commands you to repent. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Jesus died for sinners just like you."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Steve,

If you have ever worked with, have been or have someone close to you who is an alcoholic then you know they "Think" they can operate in the world just like everyone else. They "Think" they can go to the Pub with their chums & drink a few drafts & all is going to be OK....operative word is "Think". Outa the mouth of every drunk Ive ever met is the same line....."But you dont understand, I'm NOT an alcoholic".....Well OK then why did you just piss yourself, insult that lady at the bar & get us thrown out? Right!....denial. Denial of what....Sin, Human Fragility, Fear,whatever......an in short, they run away.

Well I liken this (the unregenerate state) to an alcoholic state & always running away from their troubles. Now the other heinous thing is you like yourself when your drunk, in fact your superman & your drunken state is your very best friend:love2:......you have no sense of perspective & God forbid someone come along and tell you your a drunk & take away your bottle (again your very best buddy). You like that state of drunk, you live for that state of drunk & heaven help the person who interferes.

IE....this is your sin nature & your in control (you think). And this will go on for years. But God interferes somewhere.....He beats you up in life for your sin, He chases you down, He haunts you in your insanity.

If there is clarity my brothers & sisters, it is at a time your most vulnerable & that clarity finally saves you. My clarity came in being confronted with my biggest sin & it shocked me & made me realize my God was always trying to knock sense into me & get it through my thick skull that I had purpose. From that day forward (my regeneration), I never looked back. I also developed a conscious (amazing how that happens/great coping mechanism). OK ....do I now have faith & believe....YES. But here is the dirty little secret......My greatest sin was the "sin of unbelief"....that confrontation with God was an intervention & that intervention is what saved my life.

There is my testimony----and I'm stickin to it! :godisgood:

 

[Amy.G]

Albert Barnes:
"But also for the sins of the whole world. The phrase "the sins of" is not in the original, but is not improperly supplied, for the connexion demands it. This is one of the expressions occurring in the New Testament which demonstrate that the atonement was made for all men, and which cannot be reconciled with any other opinion, if he had died only for a part of the race, this language could not have been used. The phrase, "the whole world," is one which naturally embraces all men; is such as would be used if it be supposed that the apostle meant to teach that Christ died for all men; and is such as cannot be explained on any other supposition. If he died only for the elect, it is not true that he is the "propitiation for the sins of the whole world" in any proper sense, nor would it be possible then to assign a sense in which it could be true. This passage, interpreted in its plain and obvious meaning, teaches the following things:

(1.) That the atonement in its own nature is adapted to all men, or that it is as much fitted to one individual, or One class, as another;

(2,) that it is sufficient in merit for all; that is, that if any more should be saved than actually will be, there would be no need of any additional suffering in order to save them;

(3,) that it has no special adaptedness to one person or class more than another; that is, that in its own nature it did not render the salvation of one more easy than that of another. It so magnified the law, so honoured God, so fully expressed the Divine sense of the evil of sin in respect to all men, that the offer of salvation might be made as freely to one as to another, and that any and all might take shelter under it and be safe. Whether, however, God might not, for wise reasons, resolve that its benefits should be applied to a part only, is another question, and one which does not affect the inquiry about the intrinsic nature of the atonement. On the evidence that the atonement was made for all,"