Please Explain 1 John 2 "Jesus propiation For Sins Of Whole World!"

[Amy.G]

Calvinists will tell you that His atonement is only valuable to certain chosen ones. That is not infinite, or unlimited.

Who? OK lets make it easy...who on this board?

All Cals. That is the "L" in TULIP. Limited atonement.

 

[preacher4truth]

I've said this repeatedly but it only falls on deaf ears. He who has ears to hear (ring a bell?). If you don't understand the OT, you will NOT understand the NT.

"His people" were the Jews. "My people" were the Jews. Cals want to apply everything Jesus said to the Jew to NT Christians. The church was not revealed in OT. The church was a "mystery" to the Jews. Not until Paul was the mystery revealed. That's why when the NT says "He died not only for our sins but the sins of the whole world, you can see the mystery revealed.
The Jews rejected their Messiah, the one who came to redeem "His people" and the gospel was opened up to the whole world, not part of the whole, but the whole, every person. Just as the once a year atonement was made for every person of the nation of Israel, the atonement of Christ was made for every person of the world. The atonement covered ALL sin, both Jew and Gentile.....whole world, every person.
If you can understand the OT atonement (a shadow of the true and actual), you will be able to understand the New Covenant. But so far, Cals just ignore the OT teachings.

Amy, I am aware that you are attempting to be genuine in your response. However, I must rightly reject your assuming accusation that "cals don't know the OT." I think it is perhaps not a necessary nor truthful indictment.

Furthermore, the NT is in line with the OT, and one major factor is that mysteries not understood beforehand are now revealed, so the old saying that "The NT is the OT revealed" has a lot of validity to it. Election, the elect, Gods choosing, predestination, calling, Sovereign Grace, Sovereignty are all brought to more light, and we have the OT also to examine yet again under this revealed truth. As a matter of fact, the OT has ample evidence that this truth has always been the case.

Nothing you've said in your statements dismantles anything in what we've stated here from the NT Scriptures. I also believe that many Cal brothers have a good grasp on OT Scripture knowledge.

The truth stands, He will save His people from their sins. Quite specific. Paul also preached for the sake of the elect, 2 Timothy 2:8-10 a truth he embraced. Many want to get a little angry over this passage, but it is plainly there and is seen throughout the OT and NT Scriptures.

The fact remains that yes, is Christs death, burial and resurrection efficacious to the extent it could save all people from all times from their sin? It's absurd to even question this because to deny it's power in any form would be blasphemous. The conclusive evidence lies in the fact of Who died and paid this price, and He is of course the Spotless Lamb of God and it most certainly is a perfect gift and sacrifice beyond our comprehension. Still, only the elect will be saved.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All Cals. That is the "L" in TULIP. Limited atonement.

Thats merely a acrostic of "LIMITED VALUE" and anyone who misinterprets it is very unwise in understanding of the Bible (as you yourself have pointed out). I prefer the term Particular redemption if I have to use a name for it at all, & honestly I cant stand that TULIP acronym.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Limited atonement suggests that the death of Christ was of limited value, and this is not what any true Calvinist wants to say. We believe that the death of Christ is of infinite value. It was sufficient to save not only our world but an infinite number of sinful worlds besides

 

[preacher4truth]

Thats merely a acrostic of "LIMITED VALUE" and anyone who misinterprets it is very unwise in understanding of the Bible (as you yourself have pointed out). I prefer the term Particular redemption if I have to use a name for it at all, & honestly I cant stand that TULIP acronym.

TULIP does get old, yes. Yet it is a simplistic acronym to recall some major points of Reformed thought. Unfortunately the word usage comes across as contradictory as to what is actually taught under each "letter."

 

[Iconoclast]

I've said this repeatedly but it only falls on deaf ears. He who has ears to hear (ring a bell?). If you don't understand the OT, you will NOT understand the NT.

"His people" were the Jews. "My people" were the Jews. Cals want to apply everything Jesus said to the Jew to NT Christians. The church was not revealed in OT. The church was a "mystery" to the Jews. Not until Paul was the mystery revealed. That's why when the NT says "He died not only for our sins but the sins of the whole world, you can see the mystery revealed.
The Jews rejected their Messiah, the one who came to redeem "His people" and the gospel was opened up to the whole world, not part of the whole, but the whole, every person. Just as the once a year atonement was made for every person of the nation of Israel, the atonement of Christ was made for every person of the world. The atonement covered ALL sin, both Jew and Gentile.....whole world, every person.
If you can understand the OT atonement (a shadow of the true and actual), you will be able to understand the New Covenant. But so far, Cals just ignore the OT teachings.

You are mistaken in this amyg.....there were people he died for who lived before Israel was a nation......Adam-to Abraham......The reason Cals teach what they do is that they see clearly that God deals with man in terms of His covenant throughout the whole bible.....The Covenant is predominant .

 

[Amy.G]

You are mistaken in this amyg.....there were people he died for who lived before Israel was a nation......Adam-to Abraham......The reason Cals teach what they do is that they see clearly that God deals with man in terms of His covenant throughout the whole bible.....The Covenant is predominant .

When atonement was made once a year for the nation of Israel, do you believe that the sins of only some Jews were atoned for? Or were the sins of all the Jews of Israel atoned for?

God's plan for Israel was to point to the Messiah. Therefore we can look at all the sacrifices, feasts and holy days as a shadow of Christ to come. It's not rocket science if you're only willing to learn.

No, I'm not mistaken.

 

[Amy.G]

Limited atonement suggests that the death of Christ was of limited value, and this is not what any true Calvinist wants to say. We believe that the death of Christ is of infinite value. It was sufficient to save not only our world but an infinite number of sinful worlds besides

Better call in Luke. Sounds like new doctrine to me. :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

Still, only the elect will be saved.

Agreed. The question is, what is the definition of "elect". I think that's where we disagree.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is not the argument about Limited Atonement mostly semantics, seeking for a way to describe what happened, while the answer either way has very little effect on our other beliefs or practice?

Don't we mostly agree that While Jesus death was certainly sufficient for all sins, it only gets applied to those who believe? Both sides limit the atonement in some fashion, in that its application is limited to those who believe.

Is not the real arguement, as skandalon said earlier: What ultimately CAUSES one person to recieve the benefit of Christ's death, God's choice or that person's choice? if so, I have 2 questions:

1. What does a calvinist gain by saying Jesus only died for certain people?

2. What does a non-cal gain by saying Jesus died for the sins of all?

(I realize the answer for either side might be "because the bible says so," but is there any other benifit...it it like arguing that Mark was the young boy who ran away after Jesus was arrested...interesting, but not really helpful?)

12Strings
It seems that way at first glance, but what is at issue is what is the biblical declaration on God's purpose. Is it God centered and covenantal, or man centered. Was the work actual and certain.....or open and random , and only potential.
If we stick with the whole redemptive scheme revealed in all 66 books we see clearly the teaching that is called calvinism.
The "benefit' is the confidence and assurance available to everyone believing that they have fled for refuge to the perfect work of our Lord...whose work cannot be diminished.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

TULIP does get old, yes. Yet it is a simplistic acronym to recall some major points of Reformed thought. Unfortunately the word usage comes across as contradictory as to what is actually taught under each "letter."

Yes & I think it was flawed from the beginning & should have been scrapped long ago.....again man made human error. So if you are judging Calvinist by that, please stop doing that. Now I can give you other rocks to hurl at us with more content that Ive debated my own on but the silliness of contentious Christian infighting is simply laughable (at least to me)

 

[Iconoclast]

When atonement was made once a year for the nation of Israel, do you believe that the sins of only some Jews were atoned for? Or were the sins of all the Jews of Israel atoned for?

God's plan for Israel was to point to the Messiah. Therefore we can look at all the sacrifices, feasts and holy days as a shadow of Christ to come. It's not rocket science if you're only willing to learn.

No, I'm not mistaken.

The atonement was for the Israel of God. The persons I spoke of earlier...abel ,seth, noah etc.....were covered by the true once for all time atonement.....
Amyg......only the sins of believers are atoned for....the others will be punished for all their sins,,,every idle word...and it will be shown that no atonement will be made for their sins.

14And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever.

The atonement was not for everybody.

 

[MB]

The atonement was for the Israel of God. The persons I spoke of earlier...abel ,seth, noah etc.....were covered by the true once for all time atonement.....
Amyg......only the sins of believers are atoned for....the others will be punished for all their sins,,,every idle word...and it will be shown that no atonement will be made for their sins.



The atonement was not for everybody.

I wonder can you show where the Bible says that the atonement of the blood of Christ is kept from anyone? I don't believe you can.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Better call in Luke. Sounds like new doctrine to me. :laugh:

Please do & if he disagrees then we have an opportunity to debate it.:thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

I think that both sides hold some truth here. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Notice it does not say "sins" plural. The passage is very clear that what the Lord did was to take away the "sin" siungular, of the world. I believe that means that the seperation of man from God because of sin was taken away at the cross.

However each person has sins of their own so unless they personally come to Christ their sins will not be atoned for.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Iconoclast]

I wonder can you show where the Bible says that the atonement of the blood of Christ is kept from anyone? I don't believe you can.
MB

I did in my last post.....

14And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever.

here are more for you;

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

no atonement here.......

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now why I wonder would a sinner want to come & atone for their sins? Can you explain how a person who obviously enjoys sin would suddenly want to stop sinning? Why would the guy for example who makes 90K net each month, drives nice cars, has his pick of many beautiful women, lives in an expensive house suddenly want to throw that all away?

 

[freeatlast]

Now why I wonder would a sinner want to come & atone for their sins? Can you explain how a person who obviously enjoys sin would suddenly want to stop sinning? Why would the guy for example who makes 90K net each month, drives nice cars, has his pick of many beautiful women, lives in an expensive house suddenly want to throw that all away?

That is an easy answer as I have experienced it. I got tired of what my sin was doing in the long run. It did bring pleasure for a season, but in the end it slew me. The very thing that I sought made me look to be set free from what it brought about and that freedom came in repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jssus Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is an easy answer as I have experienced it. I got tired of what my sin was doing in the long run. It did bring pleasure for a season, but in the end it slew me. The very thing that I sought made me look to be set free from what it brought about and that freedom came in repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jssus Christ.

so would you liken it to an alcoholic hitting bottom?

 

[Winman]

Peter and Paul both preached the same gospel.

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

Note when Paul preached he said CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS.

Peter preached the same gospel.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Peter preached the same gospel as Paul unless you believe he was accursed. Peter told all men that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS as Paul did. But it did not profit them not being mixed with faith.

If you can't look someone in the eye and honestly tell them Jesus died for their sins, you are not preaching the same gospel as Paul and Peter and are accursed. A very fearful thing indeed.