Please Explain 1 John 2 "Jesus propiation For Sins Of Whole World!"

[preacher4truth]

Again, must a gift be irresistibly applied for the giver to receive full glory for giving it? No.

Well, there is your answer...

Actually no, the answer was in what I stated, and it indeed does show both your discrepancies and contradictions on this eternal matter.

 

[quantumfaith]

Actually no, the answer was in what I stated, and it indeed does show both your discrepancies and contradictions on this eternal matter.

There it is in black and white proven with impeccable logic and rhetorical skill once again.

 

[Skandelon]

P4T,

Your post doesn't seem to make any sense. You will need to expound. Before you seemed to imply that my view that faith was a gift somehow contradicted my view that faith was the only thing preventing ones being saved. I explained how that is not true by showing that a gift can be resisted and yet still be considered a gift. You did not address that point.

 

[Iconoclast]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Who is the "our/s"?
Those who already believed the gospel in Jerusalem at the time John wrote

Who is the "whole world"?

Those who were to be saved outside of Jerusalem.....the children of God scattered abroad...outside of jerusalem, outside of Israel


Not every single person ever born......just worldwide on scope....:thumbsup:

50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

 

[percho]

It is more than unbelief; it is the wickedness and hardness of heart of men. They will not believe unless God changes their hearts. It is this that prevents men from entering. To say that it is merely a matter of believing is Pelagianism.


No. Not meaning merely their unbelief. Their unbelief is only a symptom of the disease. I mean the hardness and wickedness of their unredeemed hearts.

If men will sincerely believe, Christ will receive them. But they will not believe unless God gives them a new heart and a new spirit. This He has not done for all men.

Christ has died only for the elect (John 10:11, 27).

I can't think that I have heard any reputable theologian make such a comment. I suppose that there may be someone somewhere who thinks this. Perhaps you could find a quotation for me?


There is a variety of views among Reformed folk, just as there is among non-Reformed who vary all the way from semi-Pelagians to four-point "Calvinists." However, the idea that Christ's blood is of insufficient value to atone for all who come to Him is gross and ridiculous.

I'm not sure if you really don't understand the Reformed Faith at all, or if you are just being mischievous; I suspect the latter.

Steve

Please permit me to ask,
Having made known unto us (Are the us the sheep of John 10:11,27?) the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Just what are these all things? Should it be all things or just all? If just all, are these all also sheep or what? Are these all the same as every knee shall bow and every tongue confess?

Does the blood of Jesus apply to these all but they fall under a different status from the sheep/elect?

I know no Greek. One interlinear I read shows just all. W&H show ones.

This is for everyone and is something I have thought about but am not sure of.

Thanks in advance.

 

[convicted1]

Perhaps I don't understand...And this was the argument I always had with my brother incidentally......you come to me, a lost person with this wonderful message that Jesus died for everyone "YAY, then......wait for it.......without the conviction that His death actually accomplished salvation for those who should believe.That is when Im going to blow it off by asking you "what good was it"?

Now this is beginning to look like a fools errand ..... because you (& my brother) just proclaimed a redemption that did not redeem, a reconciliation that did not reconcile, a propitiation that did not propitiate & an atonement that did not atone. I would suggest that you are attempting to proclaim a weak Christ that cant accomplish & provide "True Salvation" That argument was never convincing to me.

W/O Christ's work on the cross, God would have wipped everyone of us out. Jesus took every sin, past, present, and future to the cross. In doing this, He condemned sin in the flesh. Propitiation is another word for "appeasement". He appeased God's wrath concerning sin. W/O Christ being our sacrificial Lamb, none of us would be saved, but all tossed headlong into eternal torment.

hilasmos G2434 ἱλασμός
1) an appeasing, propitiating

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (KJV)

1 John 2:2 He Himself is the [a]propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.(NASB)


[a]John2:2 Or satisfaction


1 John 2:2 is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.(NIV 1984)

Footnotes:
1 John 2:2 Or He is the one who turns aside God’s wrath, taking away our sins, and not only ours but also



1 John 2:2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,(YLT)


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.(ESV)



1 John 2:2 He Himself is the propitiation [a] for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.(HCSB)

Footnotes:
1 John 2:2 The word propitiation has to do with the removal of divine wrath. Jesus' death is the means that turns God's wrath from the sinner; see [2 Co 5:21].

So, in many different versions, they have the same meaning. Jesus' propitiation was for all, and those who fail to receive Him, will die lost, ruined, and undone.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Lets flesh this out so you can understand the jist of what I am trying to get acrossed to you. When we put this all together & look at the precise meaning, we see that Jesus did NOT come merely to make salvation possible, but to actually save people, He did not come to make redemption possible; He died to redeem his people. He did not come to make propitiation possible; He turned aside God's wrath for each of his elect people forever. He did not come merely to make atonement for sins possible, but actually to atone for sinners. This is the belief system I stand on.

Oh & " I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that of everything which he hath given to me I should loose nothing, but should raise it up in the last day" ( John6:38-39)

 

[Rippon]

Scripture Cited Is From 2011 NIV

The appeasement,satisfaction or propitiation was meant for the children of God scattered around the world. These only have their sins atoned for. The Lord removes Divine wrath from them --and no one else. If some have had their sins propitiated they will never incur the everlasting punishment of perdition. But if you insist that every single human being without exception has had or will have their sins propitiated then you are a Universalist. There is no getting around that. Christ died for Jews and Gentiles alike --not every single Jew and every single Gentile.

And they sang a new song,saying:"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,because you were slain,and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,and they will reign on the earth." (Rev.5:9,10 emphasis mine.)

John wrote something in his Gospel that ties in with 1 John 2:2.

Then one of them,named Caiaphas,who was high priest that year,spoke up,"You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish." He did not say this on his own,but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God,to bring them together and make them one. (John 11:49-52 emphasis mine)

Among other things,you will notice the meaning of the term "whole world" in 1 John 2:2 is clarified when you look at his writings and compare similar statements.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Simply put.... if Jesus died for all the sins of all men, unbelief included, then all men are saved.....which the Bible denies. Rather...

Isaiah 53:8 " For the transgression of my people he is stricken."

Mat 1:21 " You are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

Luke1:68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come to redeem his people.

 

[Winman]

Jesus did not die for believers only.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

There is no getting around these verses, it is speaking of lost, unsaved persons who are damned, yet vs. 1 says Jesus BOUGHT THEM.

Jesus died for all men, not just believers only.

 

[Rippon]

Mat 1:21 " You are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

I like that verse!

Jesus does not make people savable. He did not die for a generic and amorphous group that uses the power of their unregenerate free will to become saved. Jesus will save His people from their sins. His people He will save -- no ifs and or buts about it. Only His people will He redeem.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Now you are turning the conversation to a personal attack by questioning my motives. I'm the only one here presenting historical quotes from actual reformed scholars who clearly believed and taught that Christ’s work made full and perfect satisfaction for all. Do you agree with that, or not?

It must be one or the other. So as not to impugn your motives, I will assume that you don't understand Calvinism. Let me explain.

Christ died for the sheep. That is Calvinism; whether you agree with it or not, that is Calvinism. If anyone suggests that He died for all men in the sense of every single person, then that person is not a Calvinist. Is that clear? I can't think how I can put it more simply.

However, to suggest that in some way Christ's blood is deficient to save everyone who comes to Him is gross, ridiculous and bordering on blasphemous. Is that clear? I can't thnk how I can put it more simply.

That is all I have time for at the moment. I wil try to address your quotes from Dabney et al a bit later.

Steve

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I really dont understand some of your comments here Scan.....you attempt to say that Calvinist do not generally agree on salvation theology. And you claim to be a once time Calvinist. Like Calvinism 101 teaches:

The blood of Christ is sufficient for all but efficient for the elect.

I will go further with it .....as man, we do not know who is elect, and hence, we are to preach the gospel to all humankind. God does not "elect some to perdition,but rather leaves, or passes by, man to his own perdition. This is biblical; this is Calvinism.

 

[preacher4truth]

No skan, it is your view is what doesn't make sense. I've already showed this and have proven this.

As I stated:

I see a teetering on faith/belief here in this way; in one sentence the non-cal (skan) says the only thing that keeps them out is not believing (almost as if this is an inherent faith, when it is not such at all) then later, it is acknowledged that faith is a gift from God. Well, there's your answer.

Is the gift of faith a chance to believe, or does this gift actually enable the spiritually dead person to believe making said person a believer?

It's the latter, not the former. It is not a "chance to believe," as a "chance to believe" would make this (salvation) totally dependent upon the person, not upon Gods enabling and quickening wherein He gets all the glory, and which would totally deny that faith is the gift of God which is the Biblical truth.

It's a gift enabling the spiritually dead, nor is it a "guess what's in the box?" "do you want this?" nor is it used to tease the non-elect. I see nowhere in Scriptures God giving this to a person who is non-elect, but I do in fact see God doing this within His elect and giving this gift to them.

Did God give the non-elect the gift of faith?

It's not that the non-elect received this gift of faith which enables belief, and then rejected it and gave it back, it's that the non-elect don't believe at all, and I certainly do not see God giving to them the gift of faith.

Again, did God give the gift of faith to the non-elect, the unbeliever? I've seen a romantic argument by you in the past in way of passing by quoting theologians as saying in essence, or suggesting the non-elect can be saved. This however is unscriptural.

We see thoughout Scripture God granting to His people eternal life, Acts 14:38 for instance, they (the chosen) being the subjects and the recipients of what God was doing, redeeming those whom He had chosen from the beginning; 2 Thess. 2:13 (which is predestination which many reject this truth that God predestined some to eternal life.) I also find it of great interest that these say "No God only predestined them to be like His Son." This is absurdity, and is false, and also skips over the truth that in order for them to become like His Son they must have also been saved. I mean, any kind of denying and twisting to obscure the truth here. It is clear that it is He that has chosen us.

Why does He not give this gift to all people? Well, God is handling that part in His Sovereignty, many of us trust Him in doing just that. Others claim it not to be "fair" so they reject it.

*disclaimer, nothing I've said within this post is a direct or indirect accusation on skan nor upon anyone else involved according to my useage of words such as "others", "some', "many" or any other indirect pronouns/adjectives &c that may have been employed, it is simply dialogue.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes P4T .... Thumbs Up

 

[Amy.G]

Simply put.... if Jesus died for all the sins of all men, unbelief included, then all men are saved.....which the Bible denies. Rather...

Isaiah 53:8 " For the transgression of my people he is stricken."

Mat 1:21 " You are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

Luke1:68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come to redeem his people.

I've said this repeatedly but it only falls on deaf ears. He who has ears to hear (ring a bell?). If you don't understand the OT, you will NOT understand the NT.

"His people" were the Jews. "My people" were the Jews. Cals want to apply everything Jesus said to the Jew to NT Christians. The church was not revealed in OT. The church was a "mystery" to the Jews. Not until Paul was the mystery revealed. That's why when the NT says "He died not only for our sins but the sins of the whole world, you can see the mystery revealed.
The Jews rejected their Messiah, the one who came to redeem "His people" and the gospel was opened up to the whole world, not part of the whole, but the whole, every person. Just as the once a year atonement was made for every person of the nation of Israel, the atonement of Christ was made for every person of the world. The atonement covered ALL sin, both Jew and Gentile.....whole world, every person.
If you can understand the OT atonement (a shadow of the true and actual), you will be able to understand the New Covenant. But so far, Cals just ignore the OT teachings.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

he atonement covered ALL sin, both Jew and Gentile.....whole world, every person.

Huh, Calvinists will tell you that the value of the death of Jesus Christ is not limited in any way. His atonement is of infinite value.

 

[Amy.G]

Huh, Calvinists will tell you that the value of the death of Jesus Christ is not limited in any way. His atonement is of infinite value.

Calvinists will tell you that His atonement is only valuable to certain chosen ones. That is not infinite, or unlimited.

Study OT atonement. It will open your eyes.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In fact I believe we all can stand together in affirming that the value of Christs death was so great---in fact, infinite-- that it is more than sufficient to atone for all the sins of all the people in all ages of this world.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calvinists will tell you that His atonement is only valuable to certain chosen ones. That is not infinite, or unlimited.

Who? OK lets make it easy...who on this board?