These personal and arrogant attacks need to stop.webdogand a few others remind me of the latter half of this verse here, used for illustration and application only:
"...they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions." 1 Timothy 1:7
...as they "confidently" attack this doctrine, as if they knew what it taught, and it is clear they have no clue what it teaches whatsoever.
Is there such a thing as confident ignorance? Well, I think that it is a reality has been proven. :wavey:
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Please Explain the "I" in TULIP
- Thread starter preacher4truth
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Then I don't know what you're missing, because its been going on in here since I've been around. There are several here who have fought against needing to be enabled to believe the Gospel. Along the lines of "we already have faith inside us, we don't need to be made able." I seriously doubt you've missed it.
It's been stated so often there is no way you're missing it. These are the same ones who deny saving faith a gift from God. I suppose you've missed that too, correct?
quantumfaith
Active Member
He believes the ability was a God granted ability from the very beginning, not lost in the fall. (At least that is what I think he means)
And when he does not fall right in line with your interpretation of matters, that does not NECESSARILY put him at odds with God or with scripture, rather at odds with your perspective of God and scripture.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
No, he is saying, as I have explained, that the Gospel IS the means by which God does the enabling.
How will they believe unless they hear the gospel? Faith comes by hearing. Those in John 6 weren't hearing the gospel...they were hardened to it. (see John 12:39 again)
He claims we have the ability to hear and understand the powerful Gospel truth sent for the purpose of reconciling enemies to God, yes. He is not saying we are able to save ourselves apart from a work of the Holy Spirit. How could he since the gospel itself is such a powerful work of the Holy Spirit?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Yes, this seems to always be the angle of approach to claim that one holds that man can save himself, often gives me the impression of bait and switch.
Powerful enough to be able to save thom whom he has chosen in christ, rest stay in their natural state" deaf/blind/dumb to God in a saving fashion!
quantumfaith
Active Member
would agree, its just that at times appears to be a 'double standard" in play on BB in this area!
preacher4truth
Active Member
No, he is saying it enables us to be saved, and is denying that we need to be enabled by the gift of faith to believe, thus he argues against inability.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
If "it" is referring to the powerful work of the Holy Spirit called the GOSPEL, then you are right. And I agree with him on that point.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
That would be the Calvinistic take, yes.
But the reason I don't believe that anymore is because the bible clearly teaches that the only people are "deaf/blind/dumb to God in a saving fashion" are those who have "become hardened" or "grown calloused," which clearly is not a condition from birth.
See Acts 28:21-28
preacher4truth
Active Member
I can't say I agree, but with your latter.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I know what you're saying, you are missing what I am saying.
He says the Gospel only enables us as far as being saved, and disagrees that we need enabling to believe; i.e. the gift of faith enabling, as he says we are not in inability. Thus in that sense he says we don't need enabling.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I'm not sure you do. Do you mind restating what you think I believe just so I can know? I'm not looking for anything real long. Just a small paragraph explaining what you think I believe. That would really help.
You are not following. How can anyone believe in Christ unless they hear the gospel? They can't.
That is why the audience in John 6 couldn't believe. They were being blinded. They didn't have the gospel. Once the gospel was sent (after the ascension of Christ) then all men were being drawn by the means of the Gospel. Neither of us believe that there is some extra inward enabling necessary to believe the Gospel. See my new thread for more...
Both of you than basically deny either the Cal"arm Sotierology model of grace, correct?
NOT saying that is a bad thing, just that Both of you deny either model?
preacher4truth
Active Member
Why is this now about what I think you believe? I believe you know that faith is a gift, we are enabkled by this to believe the Gospel.
Of course no one can. I've not impied differently which shows you are not following. I am saying that what is being said is that he is saying we have within us the ability to believe, that there is no inablility within us in being able to believe, and I am saying contrary to what he says, the we must be enabled to believe the Gospel, that that saving faith is a gift from God.
How is God enabling us by the gift of faith in order to believe "extra?" It's not, it's all part of it.
...this coming from someone who in this very thread says...
:laugh: I really needed that today...that was great. I should check in on your posts more often :laugh:p4t said:
I once indicated that people should use the water downstream from the herd.....LOL! Guess that was a Freudian slip! ROFL:laugh:
quantumfaith
Active Member
Huh, not sure I understand you here?
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