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Please Show the Scripture that says
- Thread starter SGO
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I have heard there are scholars that believe Jesus and Paul (and others) referenced the Septuagint anytime they quoted OT passages in the Greek language.
It seems reasonable to me they used the language they were speaking, kone Greek.
However, to make an accurate comparison, you would need to have a very good working knowledge of the Septuagint, biblical Greek, and the Hebrew Bible.
I am confident there are some here that can meet the challenge, but I can see a lot of very technical arguments.
I’d like to read the comments.
peace to you
It is difficult to attribute quotes from Jesus to the Septuagint because the authors wrote their material at a later time from memory.
Was Jesus quoting from the Septuagint or was the author remembering the quote that Jesus used from the Septuagint?
Best to do your own research, you’ll learn more and make your own decision.
I’ve been fascinated by one passage (Hebrews 11:21), primarily because it involves a translation of an unpointed Hebrew text (a Hebrew text without vowels).
The Hebrew word for BED and STAFF are drawn from the same Hebrew consonants (mem, tau, he - מטה [right to left])
BED [מִטָּה mishkav]
STAFF [מַטֶּה matteh]
An un-pointed text leaves the decision of what word to use to the translator, it could be either.
In Hebrews 11:27, the author quotes from Genesis 47:31
In Genesis, the Masoretic Text uses the word BED
The translators of the Septuagint used the word STAFF
There are many places where the author of Hebrews departed from the later Masoretic text using an earlier version (sometimes the Septuagint, sometimes something else).
Rob
Was Jesus quoting from the Septuagint or was the author remembering the quote that Jesus used from the Septuagint?
Best to do your own research, you’ll learn more and make your own decision.
I’ve been fascinated by one passage (Hebrews 11:21), primarily because it involves a translation of an unpointed Hebrew text (a Hebrew text without vowels).
The Hebrew word for BED and STAFF are drawn from the same Hebrew consonants (mem, tau, he - מטה [right to left])
BED [מִטָּה mishkav]
STAFF [מַטֶּה matteh]
An un-pointed text leaves the decision of what word to use to the translator, it could be either.
In Hebrews 11:27, the author quotes from Genesis 47:31
By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. Hebrews 11:21 (NASB95)
In Genesis, the Masoretic Text uses the word BED
He said, “Swear to me.” So he swore to him. Then Israel bowed in worship at the head of the bed. Genesis 47:31 (NASB95)
The translators of the Septuagint used the word STAFF
He said, “Swear to me.” And he swore to him. And Israel did obeisance upon the top of his staff. (Genesis 47:31 LES – Lexham English Septuagint)
Then he said, “Swear to me.” And he swore to him. And Israel did obeisance upon the top of his staff. (Genesis 47:31 NETS - New English Translation of the Septuagint)
There are many places where the author of Hebrews departed from the later Masoretic text using an earlier version (sometimes the Septuagint, sometimes something else).
Rob
Yes scholarly responses but not any New Testament scripture. Why would Hebrew reading Jews (in the synagogues) use the Septuagint?
Do you know that the Hebrews passage comes from the Septuagint?
If so, then I am wrong.
From my limited understanding the Jews were not fond of Greek or Latin.
And if the Hebrews passage is from the Septuagint, why are there not more quotes from it especially since the majority of the New Testament was written in Greek?
Do you know that the Hebrews passage comes from the Septuagint?
If so, then I am wrong.
From my limited understanding the Jews were not fond of Greek or Latin.
And if the Hebrews passage is from the Septuagint, why are there not more quotes from it especially since the majority of the New Testament was written in Greek?
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The recorded history of the Septuagint is that it was translated by Jews because many Jews could not read Hebrew anymore.
During exile in Babylon the lingua franka, (common language) was Aramaic, similar to Hebrew but different.
(later portions of the OT book of Daniel were written in Aramaic).
Those living and prospering in Palestine, (a well traveled crossroads), would have been familiar with Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin and other languages.
Probably why the sign above the cross was written in many languages.
Rob
During exile in Babylon the lingua franka, (common language) was Aramaic, similar to Hebrew but different.
(later portions of the OT book of Daniel were written in Aramaic).
Those living and prospering in Palestine, (a well traveled crossroads), would have been familiar with Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin and other languages.
Probably why the sign above the cross was written in many languages.
Rob
Yes He inspired (authored) the scriptures but perhaps not the Septuagint.
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
2 Peter 1:21
"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
1 Peter 1:11
But the above quote said "the Lord Jesus read from."
Like this example:
" And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
Luke 4:17-21
Still looking for New Testament scripture from the Septuagint.
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
2 Peter 1:21
"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
1 Peter 1:11
But the above quote said "the Lord Jesus read from."
Like this example:
" And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
Luke 4:17-21
Still looking for New Testament scripture from the Septuagint.
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One further comment that may or may not be obvious to some.
The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.
So when a New Testament author uses a quote from Scripture, it is a quote from the Old Testament, using:
1) a Greek translation of a Hebrew text at that time,
2) a Greek paraphrase of the Hebrew text
3) a direct quote or paraphrase from the Septuagint or other common Greek translation.
or 4) perhaps something else.
2) a Greek paraphrase of the Hebrew text
3) a direct quote or paraphrase from the Septuagint or other common Greek translation.
or 4) perhaps something else.
It is a good practice that anytime you read a quote from Scripture in the New Testament, you should look up the verse in the OT and read (and understand) the OT context.
Many times you will observe differences, sometimes subtle, sometimes not so subtle.
Rob
This Septuagint?
A Brief History of the Septuagint - Associates for Biblical Research
"The Origins of the Septuagint
The very first translation of the Hebrew Bible was made into Greek, probably as early as the third century BC. This, the so-called Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, is traditionally dated to the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus of Egypt (285-246 BC).
It is commonly called the 'Septuagint' version (from the Latin for 'seventy') because according to the traditional account of its origin, preserved in the so-called Letter of Aristeas, it had seventy-two translators. This letter tells how King Ptolemy II commissioned the royal librarian, Demetrius of Phaleron, to collect by purchase or by copying all the books in the world. He wrote a letter to Eleazar, the high priest at Jerusalem, requesting six elders of each tribe, in total seventy-two men, of exemplary life and learned in the Torah, to translate it into Greek.
On arrival at Alexandria, the translators were greeted by the king and given a sumptuous banquet. They were then closeted in a secluded house on the island of Pharos close to the seashore, where the celebrated 110 m. high lighthouse, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, had just been finished.
According to the Letter of Aristeas, the translation, made under the direction of Demetrius, was completed in seventy-two days. When the Alexandrian Jewish community assembled to hear a reading of the new version, the translators and Demetrius received lavish praise, and a curse was pronounced on anyone who should alter the text by addition, transposition or omission. The work was then read to the king who, according to the Letter of Aristeas, marveled at the mind of the lawgiver. The translators were then sent back to Jerusalem, endowed with gifts for themselves and the high priest Eleazar.
Later generations embellished the story. Philo of Alexandria, writing in the first century AD, says that each of the seventy-two translators were shut in a separate cell, and miraculously all the texts were said to agree exactly with one another, thus proving that their version was directly inspired by God."
A Brief History of the Septuagint - Associates for Biblical Research
"The Origins of the Septuagint
The very first translation of the Hebrew Bible was made into Greek, probably as early as the third century BC. This, the so-called Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, is traditionally dated to the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus of Egypt (285-246 BC).
It is commonly called the 'Septuagint' version (from the Latin for 'seventy') because according to the traditional account of its origin, preserved in the so-called Letter of Aristeas, it had seventy-two translators. This letter tells how King Ptolemy II commissioned the royal librarian, Demetrius of Phaleron, to collect by purchase or by copying all the books in the world. He wrote a letter to Eleazar, the high priest at Jerusalem, requesting six elders of each tribe, in total seventy-two men, of exemplary life and learned in the Torah, to translate it into Greek.
On arrival at Alexandria, the translators were greeted by the king and given a sumptuous banquet. They were then closeted in a secluded house on the island of Pharos close to the seashore, where the celebrated 110 m. high lighthouse, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, had just been finished.
According to the Letter of Aristeas, the translation, made under the direction of Demetrius, was completed in seventy-two days. When the Alexandrian Jewish community assembled to hear a reading of the new version, the translators and Demetrius received lavish praise, and a curse was pronounced on anyone who should alter the text by addition, transposition or omission. The work was then read to the king who, according to the Letter of Aristeas, marveled at the mind of the lawgiver. The translators were then sent back to Jerusalem, endowed with gifts for themselves and the high priest Eleazar.
Later generations embellished the story. Philo of Alexandria, writing in the first century AD, says that each of the seventy-two translators were shut in a separate cell, and miraculously all the texts were said to agree exactly with one another, thus proving that their version was directly inspired by God."
You brought up Jesus' as he read from Luke 4.
I'll use the KJV (if you prefer the textus receptus)... let's compare.
Most of the differences are well within a general semantic range excepting for the phrase "recovering the sight of the blind", a phrase found in the Septuagint.
Rob
I'll use the KJV (if you prefer the textus receptus)... let's compare.
Isaiah 61:1–2 (AV 1873)
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me;
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me;
Because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek;
He hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,...
He hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,...
Luke 4:18–19 (AV 1873) [reformatted to conform to above]
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;
he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted,
to preach deliverance to the captives,
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19
to preach the acceptable year of the Lord...
he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted,
to preach deliverance to the captives,
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19
to preach the acceptable year of the Lord...
Most of the differences are well within a general semantic range excepting for the phrase "recovering the sight of the blind", a phrase found in the Septuagint.
Isaiah 61:1-2 (LES) [reformatted]
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
on account of which he has anointed me; he has sent me to bring good news to the poor,
to heal those who are crushed in heart,
to announce release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord ...
to heal those who are crushed in heart,
to announce release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord ...
Rob
Thank you Rob.
You gave me one portion of one verse that is possible.
But no more long quotes from the Greek Septuagint Old Testament from the Greek writing Jewish writers of the New Testament (especially that Pharisee of Pharisees, Paul).
They had plenty of quotes from the Old Testament in their writings.
Please understand that I am not saying the Septuagint does not exist.
The commonly accepted dating for the Septuagint is around the third century BC, right?
But if it came later, like 35, 50, 60, or later in the first century AD then it would be easy to look at a really early copy of a new testament book or even an original autograph and copy a line from one of those documents into the Septuagint wouldn't it?
Ok, discount that, seems is easy enough to do.
But then do accept the often repeated story that 70 or 72 Hebrew scholars (not prophets) sat in 70 or 72 individual rooms and copied the Old Testament from memory into Greek without error? Then the Septuagint is inspired or at least an illuminated translation.
"Philo of Alexandria, writing in the first century AD, says that each of the seventy-two translators were shut in a separate cell, and miraculously all the texts were said to agree exactly with one another, thus proving that their version was directly inspired by God."
You gave me one portion of one verse that is possible.
But no more long quotes from the Greek Septuagint Old Testament from the Greek writing Jewish writers of the New Testament (especially that Pharisee of Pharisees, Paul).
They had plenty of quotes from the Old Testament in their writings.
Please understand that I am not saying the Septuagint does not exist.
The commonly accepted dating for the Septuagint is around the third century BC, right?
But if it came later, like 35, 50, 60, or later in the first century AD then it would be easy to look at a really early copy of a new testament book or even an original autograph and copy a line from one of those documents into the Septuagint wouldn't it?
Ok, discount that, seems is easy enough to do.
But then do accept the often repeated story that 70 or 72 Hebrew scholars (not prophets) sat in 70 or 72 individual rooms and copied the Old Testament from memory into Greek without error? Then the Septuagint is inspired or at least an illuminated translation.
"Philo of Alexandria, writing in the first century AD, says that each of the seventy-two translators were shut in a separate cell, and miraculously all the texts were said to agree exactly with one another, thus proving that their version was directly inspired by God."
The letter of Aristeas is ancient fable.
I’m not really sure you know what you are looking for. Translations are meant to be similar to their Templar so in most instances you will not find major differences.
Christians have valued translations from the very beginning, unlike the Moslem faith where they condemn translators.
I want to note that there are a few Dead Sea Scrolls that predate the NT that were written in Greek.
If you are interested in serious study there are a number of recent books that are a source valuable information.
I’d recommend Karen Jobes and Moises Silva’s Invitation to the Septuagint
Rob
I’m not really sure you know what you are looking for. Translations are meant to be similar to their Templar so in most instances you will not find major differences.
Christians have valued translations from the very beginning, unlike the Moslem faith where they condemn translators.
I want to note that there are a few Dead Sea Scrolls that predate the NT that were written in Greek.
If you are interested in serious study there are a number of recent books that are a source valuable information.
I’d recommend Karen Jobes and Moises Silva’s Invitation to the Septuagint
Rob
So if the "The letter of Aristeas is ancient fable." who wrote the Septuagint?
Isn't it named after the 70 (LXX) or so Hebrew scholars?
Tell me there are many proven Septuagint manuscripts dating from BC time.
Please don't tell me to become a scholar and by doing so then I will be worthy to discuss the questions being raised.
I am willing to admit when I am wrong some of the time.
Isn't it named after the 70 (LXX) or so Hebrew scholars?
Tell me there are many proven Septuagint manuscripts dating from BC time.
Please don't tell me to become a scholar and by doing so then I will be worthy to discuss the questions being raised.
I am willing to admit when I am wrong some of the time.
SGO, you simply asked a question... I did my best to answer it.
I wasn’t being judgmental.
I’m not telling you to be anything; I’m no scholar myself.
I‘ve simply fed a desire to learn about things that interest me.
I wasn’t being judgmental.
I’m not telling you to be anything; I’m no scholar myself.
I‘ve simply fed a desire to learn about things that interest me.
After the near east was conquered by Alexander the Great (ca. 333 B.C. E.), the Jewish people came under the influence of Hellenistic culture. Their religious values and ancient ways collided with Greek practices, philosophies, and language. Just as today most Jews live outside of Israel, so it was during the Hellenistic period. Because as a rule the Jews of the Diaspora (Dispersion) scattered throughout the Mediterranean no longer spoke the Hebrew, they needed to translate their sacred writings into Greek, which had become the lingua franca of the Hellenistic world. Thus the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, now known as the Septuagint, became Scripture to the Greek-speaking Jewish communities in the Diaspora. Together with the Greek New Testament, it would become the Bible of most Christians during the first centuries of the church. The Greek version remains even today the canonical text for the Orthodox Christian tradition, which traces its heritage to the earliest Greek-speaking Christians.
Because of its widespread importance, numerous copies of the Greek Bible were produced by scribes in many places throughout the centuries. More manuscripts of the Greek Old Testament survive than of any other ancient Greek text except the New Testament. Counting both complete and fragmentary manuscripts, nearly 2000 handwritten copies of the Septuagint have survived. In comparison, we have only about 650 extant manuscripts of Homer’s Iliad, the most popular work of iniquity, and fewer than 350 of the works of the famous Greek tradition Euripides.
Invitation to the Septuagint, by Karen H. Jobes and Moises Silva, from the introduction on page 20
RobInvitation to the Septuagint, by Karen H. Jobes and Moises Silva, from the introduction on page 20
Yes I was wrong about my reaction.
Too much pride in seeing my own print.
I know you were just trying to make a beneficial suggestion.
The Septuagint "fable" is too attached to the story of its origin.
If the Septuagint was created BC and it was such a good translation, then the apostles and disciples who wrote the Greek New Testament should have readily used it when making their Old Testament quotes.
And where did the line, "Jesus read from the Septuagint" really come from?
Here is one example:
What Bible Version Did Jesus Read?
The first line in their A (answer): "A: If, as most scholars today believe, Jesus spoke primarily in Aramaic, though he sometimes might have also used Greek and perhaps even Hebrew,"
is a distortion saying that Jesus perhaps spoke Hebrew because
in Acts 26:14-15 it says,
"And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, 'Saul, Saul,
why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.' And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest."
And then the article states,
"...what Bible was he likely to have read and heard read in the synagogue? The answer is that he likely heard Scripture read in Hebrew and occasionally in Greek, and then paraphrased and interpreted in Aramaic."
without citing proof (none for the Greek but only a little for Aramaic), relying on the idea that Aramaic was the common language of the time, which would seem to me to be a logical assumption, but not necessarily valid.
Too much pride in seeing my own print.
I know you were just trying to make a beneficial suggestion.
The Septuagint "fable" is too attached to the story of its origin.
If the Septuagint was created BC and it was such a good translation, then the apostles and disciples who wrote the Greek New Testament should have readily used it when making their Old Testament quotes.
And where did the line, "Jesus read from the Septuagint" really come from?
Here is one example:
What Bible Version Did Jesus Read?
The first line in their A (answer): "A: If, as most scholars today believe, Jesus spoke primarily in Aramaic, though he sometimes might have also used Greek and perhaps even Hebrew,"
is a distortion saying that Jesus perhaps spoke Hebrew because
in Acts 26:14-15 it says,
"And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, 'Saul, Saul,
why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.' And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest."
And then the article states,
"...what Bible was he likely to have read and heard read in the synagogue? The answer is that he likely heard Scripture read in Hebrew and occasionally in Greek, and then paraphrased and interpreted in Aramaic."
without citing proof (none for the Greek but only a little for Aramaic), relying on the idea that Aramaic was the common language of the time, which would seem to me to be a logical assumption, but not necessarily valid.
I personally do not believe the Septuagint exists. Just as the Letter of Aristeas has been proven to be a fraud, so the Septuagint is most likely a fraud.
I have studied it somewhat and am always amazed at how most Christian scholars still hold to it's existence. I always ask, where is our oldest copy of the Septuagint?
The Septuagint, in my opinion and others, is nothing but Origen's translation of the Old Testament, which was written around 2nd century A.D. The letter of Aristeas was created to somehow give credibility to this translation, as it differed from the Palestinian Jews translation of their Old Testament.
This is all about the difference between the Jews of Israel, or Palestine, and the Jews of Alexandria, who were heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. And Origen was an Alexandrian Jew. Plus, the Apocrypha is included in the so called Septuagint. Thus giving some credibility to the Roman Catholic beliefs.
This impacts our present day modern translations of the Bible. They follow Westcott/Hort's translation which comes from the Alexandrian texts, using a small minority of the vast amount of manuscripts available. In contrast to this, the KJV follows the Palestinian Jews translation of their Old Testament, the Masoretic text. And for the New Testament they rely on the vast majority of manuscripts, copies, and versions available, instead of the few from Alexandria.
This is why you have a considerable amount of differences between the KJV and modern day versions. It is an important matter.
My opinion is that the KJV is the best Bible one can have, and the safest.
Quantrill
I have studied it somewhat and am always amazed at how most Christian scholars still hold to it's existence. I always ask, where is our oldest copy of the Septuagint?
The Septuagint, in my opinion and others, is nothing but Origen's translation of the Old Testament, which was written around 2nd century A.D. The letter of Aristeas was created to somehow give credibility to this translation, as it differed from the Palestinian Jews translation of their Old Testament.
This is all about the difference between the Jews of Israel, or Palestine, and the Jews of Alexandria, who were heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. And Origen was an Alexandrian Jew. Plus, the Apocrypha is included in the so called Septuagint. Thus giving some credibility to the Roman Catholic beliefs.
This impacts our present day modern translations of the Bible. They follow Westcott/Hort's translation which comes from the Alexandrian texts, using a small minority of the vast amount of manuscripts available. In contrast to this, the KJV follows the Palestinian Jews translation of their Old Testament, the Masoretic text. And for the New Testament they rely on the vast majority of manuscripts, copies, and versions available, instead of the few from Alexandria.
This is why you have a considerable amount of differences between the KJV and modern day versions. It is an important matter.
My opinion is that the KJV is the best Bible one can have, and the safest.
Quantrill
I'm curious Quantrill,
What do you believe about the theory of gravity?
The Apocrypha was also included in the KJV!
Rob
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The Gospel Coalition, What is the Septuagint? [link]
...technically speaking, there is no such thing as “the Septuagint.”
If you own a modern copy of the Septuagint (e.g., Rahlfs or Brenton editions), it is an “eclectic” edition, that is, a collection of the best and most reliable Greek manuscripts reconstructed to approximate the original translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek.
So, when scholars use this term, it does not refer to a single text. Rather, it refers to a collection of Greek translations produced by numerous scribes over the course of a few hundred years and, in all likelihood, composed in different locations.
Today, the term is usually used to refer generally to the various Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible, as well as some additional books, such as Tobit, Maccabees, and Sirach, to name a few.
...technically speaking, there is no such thing as “the Septuagint.”
If you own a modern copy of the Septuagint (e.g., Rahlfs or Brenton editions), it is an “eclectic” edition, that is, a collection of the best and most reliable Greek manuscripts reconstructed to approximate the original translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek.
So, when scholars use this term, it does not refer to a single text. Rather, it refers to a collection of Greek translations produced by numerous scribes over the course of a few hundred years and, in all likelihood, composed in different locations.
Today, the term is usually used to refer generally to the various Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible, as well as some additional books, such as Tobit, Maccabees, and Sirach, to name a few.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
While a little off topic for the Septuagint, I know that Scholars also derive benefit from translations into other languages that were made at very early dates because even a modern copy of an early translation will provide hints of the original wording in the autograph when surviving Greek manuscripts suggest an error has entered at an early date (like the so-called “floating verses” that appear in different locations in different manuscripts.)
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