37818
Well-Known Member
The Term Trinity is not in the Bible either.
Penal Substitution is understood to be taught in Isaiah 53:6 and Romans 5:8.
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Points of disagreement.
- Thread starter 37818
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Penal Substitution is understood to be taught in Isaiah 53:6 and Romans 5:8.
Strawman.
The term is not BUT I am not saying that the term even should be in the Bible.
I am talking about doctrine. Who cares what we call the doctrines????
Isaiah 53 and Romans 5 do not actually teach Penal Substitution Theory. Those chapters teach what God has delivered to us as that text.
You read the theory into the passages.
That is why you cannot highlight that God punished Jesus for our sins in your Bible. You can't provide the words you are translating "Jesus suffered God's wrath".
You hold a re-formed Roman Catholic theory based on a legal philosophy that has died because it proved false.
IF you believed the actual text of Scripture you would see the foolishness of your theory. But I was once there as well. I understand you cannot.
37818
Well-Known Member
We do not agree on too many things here which confuses issues.
The texts of the transaction stands.
What I had cited.
Isaiah 53:6, All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Romans 5:8, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
We agree on the text, and probably more.
God laid our iniquity on Christ (and God lays Christ's righteousness on us).
While we were sinners Christ died for us.
You will get no objections from me regarding the text.
I was objecting to the idea that Jesus experienced God's wrath.
Now, some may believe that God laying our iniquity on Jesus means it was taken from us and put on Him....but that would mean Christ is unrighteous today as God lays Jesus' righteousness on us.
37818
Well-Known Member
And what did I qualify about God's "wrath" "on Christ" in this thread?
I do not mean I was objecting to your post. I mean that was my objection on this thread.
I was not saying you believe Jesus suffered God's wrath. Sorry if it seemed so. I mixed up threads.
What would happen to anyone who rejected Jesus, would they not them face the wrath and condemnation of God, so why would not Jesus endure the same when he died for us?
Would it be unfair to have Jesus experience that deserved wrath due us since He had agree from eternity past to be our sin bearer? Just trying to understand what your rejection of that would be based upon Brother
On "the Day of Wrath" those who are lost are condemned. The condemnation is that they rejected the Light. They remain in their sins. They remain wicked.
Why would Jesus have to endure the second death just because those who remain wicked - who store up wrath for themselves - will be cast into the Lake of Fire prepared for Satan and his demons???
There is no reason for God to have transferred our actions onto Jesus to punish those sins on Him.
Man's problem is not sins. Man's problem is that man falls short of the glory of God. Man has a mind set on the flesh. Sins are the fruits of the problem.
I would address issues that are an attack on the gospel. Secondary and tertiary issues are important to unity, growth, and fellowship but if the gospel itself is corrupted their is no message of forgiveness of sins. Teachings such as Arianism, Modalism, and Oneness (denying the Trinity) attack the nature and person of Christ. There are more I can list but I repeat - any issues that are attack on the gospel deserve to be confronted with all vigor.
37818
Well-Known Member
Obvious false teachings which deny essential Biblical teachings are worse than secondary teachings that the saved might disagree on.
The sould that sins must die though, and we are all accountable to God for what we had done sinning wise before we got saved
That verse is in Ezeliel 18 speaking about the Israelites punishing crimes (per your assessment as well).
The passage picks up with "God's ways" further down. He says that He will forgive those who repent and tells them they need a "new heart" in order to be forgiven.
but there must be an established basis by which God can forgive their sins and still remain a Holy God
Yes, but Scripture establishes this basis.
Which would be us repenting of our sins then?
No. Repenting of our wickedness.
Scripture tells us that our sins are not the problem, that sins are the product or "fruits" of the problem.
We fall short of the glory of God, we have minds set on the flesh. This results in sins.
Same with a heart set on the Spirit. This bears fruit.
That is a very good question.
First, this question and its resulting answer from the Reformed perspective has been argued on this board ad infinitum, ad nauseum. So, I am not explaining anything new that you have not heard before. That said...
We know that the sinner is, as scripture explains, "dead in your trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1). The word Paul uses for dead is νεκρός (nekros). It means dead as in a corpse, not being in a state of death. There was purpose to that word selection by Paul. Someone who is dead is incapable of doing anything.
Paul alludes to this in his first letter to the Corinthians:
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update (1 Co 2:14). (1995). The Lockman Foundation.
The natural man is the worldly man - the unregenerate and unsaved man. Because the natural man does not have the Spirit of God, he is incapable of understand spiritual truth.
So, if the natural man - the sinner - is dead and does not understand, something outside of man has to make him capable of belief/faith. Paul deals with this directly.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update (Eph 2:4–5). (1995). The Lockman Foundation.
We see that it is God who unilaterally chooses to make the one who is dead alive. We get into the ordo salutis (order of salvation) at this point. Regeneration (some call it "enlightenment") precedes faith but it does not eliminate faith. Once regenerated the individual exercises saving faith (belief).
Now, we can get into the means of salvation. You quoted Romans 10:17 which I affirm. The Gospel is the means of salvation. However, the means is not the same as the internal work of the Spirit. The Spirit uses the means (the Gospel) as part of the outward call.
OK. I did not want to get too deep in the weeds. Mission not accomplished. But you asked.
Have a blessed evening.
God desires "all men everywhere to repent and come to the knowledge of truth" and when you get that worked into your theology it won't be so difficult to understand. Everything falls in place.