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Points of disagreement.
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Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
That is why I was surprised to see so many Baptists stating an affirmation to the "Doctrines of Grace". It makes me wonder if they ever read the "Doctrines of Grace".
But I get it. Today we hold hold theologies in part, calling it the whole. If investigated, Catholics rarely actually believe Catholic doctrines in full. Yet if asked, they do.
We live in a world of snippets and Cliff Notes.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"The objects of Redemption come next under consideration. These are a special and distinct people; they are said to be "Redeemed from the Earth"; that is, from among the inhabitants of the Earth, as after explained, "Redeemed from among men"; and one end of Christ's Redemption of them is, "to purify to himself a peculiar people", #Re 14:3,4 Tit 2:14.
"The Inspired writers seem to delight in using the pronoun "us", when speaking of the death of Christ, and Redemption by it; thereby pointing at a particular people, as the context shows: "Christ died for us"; God "delivered Him up for us all"; "who gave Himself for us, that He might Redeem us"; "hath Redeemed us unto God by Thy Blood", #Ro 5:8 8:32 Tit 2:14 Re 5:9.
"They are many indeed for whom Christ has given "His life a Ransom", a Ransom Price, the Price of their Redemption, #Mt 20:28. But then these are so described as show they are a peculiar people; they are the "many" who are Ordained unto Eternal Life; the "many" the Father has given to Christ; the many whose sins He Bore on the cross; the "many" for whom His Blood was Shed for the Remission of their sins; the "many" who are made Righteous by His Obedience; the "many" sons, He, the Captain of their salvation, brings to Glory. That the objects of Redemption are a special people, will appear by the following observations.
1. "The objects of Redemption are such who are the objects of God's Love; for Redemption, as has been observed, flows from the Love of God and Christ; and which Love is not that general kindness shown in Providence to all men, as the creatures of God; but is special and discriminating; the favour which He bears to His Own people, as distinct from others; "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated":"
2. "The objects of Election and Redemption are the same; "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's Elect?--It is Christ that died!" died for the Elect: so the same, us all, for whom God delivered up His Son, are those whom He Foreknew, and whom He Predestinated; and whose Calling, Justification, and Glorification are secured thereby, #Ro 8:30-33 and the same us, who are said to be Chosen in Christ, before the Foundation of the World, have Redemption in Him through His Blood, #Eph 1:4,7.
"Election and Redemption are of equal extent; no more are Redeemed by Christ than are Chosen in Him; and these are a special people: what is said of the objects of the one is true of the objects of the other."
3. "Those for whom Christ has died, and has Redeemed by His Blood, are no other than those for whom He became a Surety. Now Christ was the Surety of the Better Testament, or Covenant of Grace; and of course became a Surety for those, and for no other,..."
4. "The objects of Redemption are described by such characters as show them to be a special and distinct people; particularly they are called, the people of God and Christ; "for the transgressions of my people", saith the Lord, "was He Stricken"; that is, Christ was, or would be, Stricken by the Rod of Justice, to make Satisfaction for their sins, and thereby Redeem them from them, #Isa 53:8 and when He was about to Come and Redeem them, Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist, at His birth said, "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel! for He hath Visited and Redeemed His people"; by Sending Christ, the Dayspring from on High, as He afterwards calls Him, to Visit them, and Redeem them by His Blood, #Lu 1:68,78.
"Hence, also, the Angel that appeared to Joseph, and instructed him to call the Son that should be Born of his wife by the Name of Jesus, gives this reason, "for He shall Save His people from their sins", #Mt 1:21. Now though all men are, in a sense, the people of God, as they are His creatures, and the care of His providence; yet they are not all Redeemed by Christ; because those that are Redeemed by Christ are Redeemed "out of every people"; and therefore cannot be every or all people, #Re 5:9..."
5. "The objects of Redemption; or those for whom Christ Laid Down His Life a Ransom Price (according to what Jesus Himself said about who it was He Died for), are described as "sheep"; as the sheep of Christ, in whom He has a special property, being given Him of His Father; and who are represented as distinct from others, who are not His sheep, #Joh 10:15,26,29 and such things are said of them as can only agree with some particular persons; as, that they are known by Christ; "I know My sheep", not merely by His Omniscience, so He knows all men; but He knows them distinctly as His Own; "the Lord knows them that are His", from others; He has Knowledge of them, joined with Special Love and Affection for them; as He has not 'brothers', to whom He will say, "Depart from Me: I know you not"..."
6. "The objects of Redemption are the sons of God; Redemption and Adoption belong to the same persons; according to the Prophecy of Caiaphas, Christ was to Die, not for those Elect in the Nation of the Jews only, but to "Gather Together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad" throughout the Gentile world, #Joh 11:52 and those who are Predestinated to Adoption by Christ are said to have Redemption in Him, through His Blood, #Eph 1:5,7 and the Blessing of Adoption, in the full enjoyment of it, in the Resurrection, is called "the Redemption of the body"; when Redemption, as to the application of it, will be complete also, #Ro 8:23..."
"Now from all this it appears, that Redemption is not universal, is not of all men; for though they are many for whom the Ransom Price is Paid; yet though all are many, many are not all; and if the Redeemed are such who are the objects of God's Special Love and Favour, then not all men; for there are some of whom it is said, "He that made them, will not have mercy on them; and he that formed them, will show them no favour", #Isa 27:11.
"If they are the Elect of God who are Redeemed by Christ, and them only, then not all men; for all are not chosen; "The election hath obtained it"; and "the rest are blinded", #Ro 11:7.
"If only those are Redeemed for whom Christ became a Surety, then not all men; since Christ did not Engage to Pay the Debts of all men;
"and if they are the people of God and Christ, then not all; since there are some on whom God writes a "loammi", saying, "Ye are not my people; and I will not be your God", #Ho 1:9...."
Much more at His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 6, Chapter 3
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
That "all" may mean "many" is true, as in I Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth", and then, since the Bible doesn't contridict itself, it is also true that "many" does not mean "all", because it is also written, "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to Minister, and to Give His Life a Ransom for many", in Mark 10:45.
And if it doesn't, some more basic Bible language usage of the word "all" may profit, like to see in I Timothy 2:1, when it says "I exhort therefore, that, first of all", to be literate in English is to going to be a case in which we could think for a second that the Bible was indicating that this first exhortation was going to be the first in a list, where it would be the "first of all" exhortations that could ever be given and that every imaginable and, therefore, 'all' exhortations that have ever existed where going to follow it as the narrative continued.
Then, again Doctrinally, in keeping with the Atributes of God, there aren't "any saved, except whom God Wills that they should be saved:
"hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not God's Will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are Two Contrary Wills in God;
"because there are some who were before Ordained by God unto Condemnation, and are Vessels of Wrath Fitted for Destruction;
"and it is God's Will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they 'all' might be Damned;
"nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it were God's Will 'all men' should be saved;
"for who hath resisted His Will?
"but there is a World of ungodly men that will be Condemned, and who will go into Everlasting Punishment:", etc., etc., etc.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
The only thing I have ever seen that you know about Baptists is that you equate Baptist with Catholicism, who slaughtered their kind by the tens of millions, for some other reason than that they are indistinguishably identical Doctrinally, Practically, and Organizationally.
Get some church.
Alan, this it to much to read. I like the compact replies for the most part. lol
Well, I think you already know I disagree with all of this, but that works both ways.
@Alan Dale Gross
When I said in the previous post that I disagreed with all of what you wrote, did "all" mean part of what you wrote or every single line of what you wrote.
I'm confused on what "all" means.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
All is well.
The scriptures are colored Royle purple so you could just read them to get a gist of it, since you aren't into the length.
And, then there are salient points highlighted in red, but that's on you, whether you glance at them.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Except that the substantiation for what we believe, respectively, is hardly presented using an equally stringent criteria.
????
I do not equate Baptist with Catholicism. Baptists existed outside of the Catholic Church (all Anabaptists are Baptists...although most Baptists are not Anabaptists).
You have me confused with somebody else.
I am the one who said Presbyterians maintained too much RCC doctrine. Now, some Baptist churches hold a lot of Presbyterian doctrine, but if that shoe fits then you wear it. I am a Baptist (not a Catholic).