Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I never agree withOriginally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Finally! A poll worded in a way where I could vote.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick.
I guess there is a first for everything
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Political Viewpoints
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
Joseph_Botwinick.
I guess there is a first for everything
poncho
Well-Known Member
I hardly watch tv anymore. Back before Star Trek was all reruns I watched it quite regular though. I knew what you meant by POV just trying out a little jocularity, it seemed kind of stuffy in here.
If you think Bush is a conservative OR methinks the definition has changed somewhat.
One entry found for conservatism.
Main Entry: con·ser·va·tism
Pronunciation: k&n-'s&r-v&-"ti-z&m
Function: noun
1 capitalized a : the principles and policies of a Conservative party b : the Conservative party
2 a : disposition in politics to preserve what is established b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change
3 : the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change
Merriam Webster
Nope the definition is what I thought it was and it doesn't describe George W. Bush.
How about liberal?
One entry found for liberalism.
Main Entry: lib·er·al·ism
Pronunciation: 'li-b(&-)r&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being liberal
2 a often capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party.
Merriam Webster
Nope that doesn't quite fit either.
Machiavellian
2 entries found for Machiavellian.
To select an entry, click on it.
Main Entry: Ma·chi·a·vel·lian
Pronunciation: "ma-kE-&-'ve-lE-&n, -'vel-y&n
Function: adjective
Etymology: Niccolo Machiavelli
1 : of or relating to Machiavelli or Machiavellianism
2 : suggesting the principles of conduct laid down by Machiavelli; specifically : marked by cunning, duplicity, or bad faith
- Machiavellian noun
Merriam Webster
Machiavellian, yeah that describes him.
If you think Bush is a conservative OR methinks the definition has changed somewhat.
One entry found for conservatism.
Main Entry: con·ser·va·tism
Pronunciation: k&n-'s&r-v&-"ti-z&m
Function: noun
1 capitalized a : the principles and policies of a Conservative party b : the Conservative party
2 a : disposition in politics to preserve what is established b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change
3 : the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change
Merriam Webster
Nope the definition is what I thought it was and it doesn't describe George W. Bush.
How about liberal?
One entry found for liberalism.
Main Entry: lib·er·al·ism
Pronunciation: 'li-b(&-)r&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being liberal
2 a often capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party.
Merriam Webster
Nope that doesn't quite fit either.
Machiavellian
2 entries found for Machiavellian.
To select an entry, click on it.
Main Entry: Ma·chi·a·vel·lian
Pronunciation: "ma-kE-&-'ve-lE-&n, -'vel-y&n
Function: adjective
Etymology: Niccolo Machiavelli
1 : of or relating to Machiavelli or Machiavellianism
2 : suggesting the principles of conduct laid down by Machiavelli; specifically : marked by cunning, duplicity, or bad faith
- Machiavellian noun
Merriam Webster
Machiavellian, yeah that describes him.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Poncho
You cannot go to the dictionary to determine the meaaning of political liberal and political conservative. Currently a political liberal is just a polite term for those who believe in a socialist government, of course they ARE the government.
The following article by columnist Holmes Alexander was published 30 or more years ago. It presents the best definition of true Conservative philosophy that I have read. It is appropriate for all who are confused about what constitutes the true Conservative political philosophy.
OldRegular
‘The Bobbs-Merrill Company, book publishers of the American Heritage Series, have acted better late than never in recognizing the conservative movement that has been booming along for nearly two decades now. The Heritage Series has previously put out books on the New Left and Black Nationalism, agrarian revolt and civil disobedience, literary radicalism and the libertarian theory, and now "belatedly," as the editors admit, they have made William Buckley the collector and commentator of an anthology called "Did You Ever See a Dream Walking” which gives excerpts from the writings of 25 conservative authors.
As might be expected, the best passages in the volume are those written by Bill Buckley himself. You won't find here any thumbnail definition of conservatism, but will be shown samples of what it is, and be warned away from what it is not. The samplings show that conservatism, among much else, is a form of non violent dissent against — well, materialism, statism, godlessness, immorality.
Conservatism has a lot to do with free enterprise, little to do with Big Business. Conservatism is a discipline, and thus the enemy of permissiveness It is law-and-order, but not repression. It is good manners and social responsibility, but it has few rules — stops short of maudlin pity for the poor and the minorities. It regards Communism as an unmitigated evil, calls Fascism its “illegitimate” brother, and treats Socialism as an obnoxious poor relation of both.
Conservatism is individualism, which is to say, personal freedom. The basic freedom, as Gary Wills writes in this book, is that of the human will. It cannot be killed unless the man himself is killed or reduced to a sub-human condition, as has been done in both ancient and modern times by tyrannous states.
But the individual has an obligation to use his freedom. never to abuse it, as some of our demonstrators of today have abused and debased the freedom of speech.
The ideal state, says the conservative, is one which recognizes that freedom is not given to anybody by his government, but is protected by the laws of the land, as well as by the policeman on the corner. The state, as the conservative sees it, ought to be the servant and the convenience of the free citizen.
The state is not even a leader, or should not be because it always fails in such efforts except in time of war. Dr. Milton Friedman. for example, points out that when the government sets out to help the I poor by passing minimum wage laws, it ends up creating unemployment. The welfare laws have merely perpetuated the poverty and idleness of the supposed beneficiaries. While no conservative could be an anarchist, he would eternally be for a government that is as unobtrusive as possible.
A good many conservatives — two or three in this volume — came to their present beliefs by way of Communism, the god that failed them. Not all of them embraced the Christian religion by way of reaction. As Buckley notes, it is possible for a conservative to disbelieve in a personal God, but it is impossible for a conservative to despise God. The surest synonym, — if there is any — for conservatism is morality. A man cannot be a materialist, or an egocentric, or utterly ruthless, or rudely arrogant and still qualify as a conservative.
Thus in a famous review of "Atlas Shrugged” Whittaker Chambers, then associate editor of the National Review, read Miss Ayn Rand, the author, completely out of the conservative movement. "Out of a lifetime of reading," Chambers wrote, "I can recall no other book in which the tone of overriding arrogance was so implacably sustained." And the National Review itself publicly excommunicated Robert Welch first because the editors found his conspiratorial theories to be unsound, and second because to keep silent about Mr. Welch under the circumstances might seem to give consent to his unsound ideas.
I said that conservatism is a dissent, and you will find in this book that it is a dissent against ideas and persons that attempt to enslave the individual.’
You cannot go to the dictionary to determine the meaaning of political liberal and political conservative. Currently a political liberal is just a polite term for those who believe in a socialist government, of course they ARE the government.
The following article by columnist Holmes Alexander was published 30 or more years ago. It presents the best definition of true Conservative philosophy that I have read. It is appropriate for all who are confused about what constitutes the true Conservative political philosophy.
OldRegular
‘The Bobbs-Merrill Company, book publishers of the American Heritage Series, have acted better late than never in recognizing the conservative movement that has been booming along for nearly two decades now. The Heritage Series has previously put out books on the New Left and Black Nationalism, agrarian revolt and civil disobedience, literary radicalism and the libertarian theory, and now "belatedly," as the editors admit, they have made William Buckley the collector and commentator of an anthology called "Did You Ever See a Dream Walking” which gives excerpts from the writings of 25 conservative authors.
As might be expected, the best passages in the volume are those written by Bill Buckley himself. You won't find here any thumbnail definition of conservatism, but will be shown samples of what it is, and be warned away from what it is not. The samplings show that conservatism, among much else, is a form of non violent dissent against — well, materialism, statism, godlessness, immorality.
Conservatism has a lot to do with free enterprise, little to do with Big Business. Conservatism is a discipline, and thus the enemy of permissiveness It is law-and-order, but not repression. It is good manners and social responsibility, but it has few rules — stops short of maudlin pity for the poor and the minorities. It regards Communism as an unmitigated evil, calls Fascism its “illegitimate” brother, and treats Socialism as an obnoxious poor relation of both.
Conservatism is individualism, which is to say, personal freedom. The basic freedom, as Gary Wills writes in this book, is that of the human will. It cannot be killed unless the man himself is killed or reduced to a sub-human condition, as has been done in both ancient and modern times by tyrannous states.
But the individual has an obligation to use his freedom. never to abuse it, as some of our demonstrators of today have abused and debased the freedom of speech.
The ideal state, says the conservative, is one which recognizes that freedom is not given to anybody by his government, but is protected by the laws of the land, as well as by the policeman on the corner. The state, as the conservative sees it, ought to be the servant and the convenience of the free citizen.
The state is not even a leader, or should not be because it always fails in such efforts except in time of war. Dr. Milton Friedman. for example, points out that when the government sets out to help the I poor by passing minimum wage laws, it ends up creating unemployment. The welfare laws have merely perpetuated the poverty and idleness of the supposed beneficiaries. While no conservative could be an anarchist, he would eternally be for a government that is as unobtrusive as possible.
A good many conservatives — two or three in this volume — came to their present beliefs by way of Communism, the god that failed them. Not all of them embraced the Christian religion by way of reaction. As Buckley notes, it is possible for a conservative to disbelieve in a personal God, but it is impossible for a conservative to despise God. The surest synonym, — if there is any — for conservatism is morality. A man cannot be a materialist, or an egocentric, or utterly ruthless, or rudely arrogant and still qualify as a conservative.
Thus in a famous review of "Atlas Shrugged” Whittaker Chambers, then associate editor of the National Review, read Miss Ayn Rand, the author, completely out of the conservative movement. "Out of a lifetime of reading," Chambers wrote, "I can recall no other book in which the tone of overriding arrogance was so implacably sustained." And the National Review itself publicly excommunicated Robert Welch first because the editors found his conspiratorial theories to be unsound, and second because to keep silent about Mr. Welch under the circumstances might seem to give consent to his unsound ideas.
I said that conservatism is a dissent, and you will find in this book that it is a dissent against ideas and persons that attempt to enslave the individual.’
poncho
Well-Known Member
"Conservatism has a lot to do with free enterprise, little to do with Big Business."
This has changed, big business runs the government be it under republican or democrat control.
"Conservatism is individualism, which is to say, personal freedom."
Nope, conservatives seemed to have fallin into collectivism same as the liberals.
"But the individual has an obligation to use his freedom. never to abuse it, as some of our demonstrators of today have abused and debased the freedom of speech."
I agree with the first part, the second, well lets just say that all demonstrators are not evil or anti government or even liberals. That's a fallacy the "liberal media" which once again is owned and controlled by conservative corporatists like to put in peoples minds.
"The ideal state, says the conservative, is one which recognizes that freedom is not given to anybody by his government, but is protected by the laws of the land, as well as by the policeman on the corner. The state, as the conservative sees it, ought to be the servant and the convenience of the free citizen."
That's how I see it, apparently Clinton and Bush see it differently probably because both rely on the citizens being indoctrinated into collectivism for their policies to seem reasonable.
"The state is not even a leader, or should not be because it always fails in such efforts except in time of war."
Maybe this is why Goerge W. Bush wanted to be a "war president".
"The welfare laws have merely perpetuated the poverty and idleness of the supposed beneficiaries. While no conservative could be an anarchist, he would eternally be for a government that is as unobtrusive as possible."
That's what they say while creating more bureaucracies that just don't work or take to long to get into action and waste mountains of tax money. FEMA, Homeland Security?
"A good many conservatives — two or three in this volume — came to their present beliefs by way of Communism, the god that failed them. Not all of them embraced the Christian religion by way of reaction. As Buckley notes, it is possible for a conservative to disbelieve in a personal God, but it is impossible for a conservative to despise God. The surest synonym, — if there is any — for conservatism is morality. A man cannot be a materialist, or an egocentric, or utterly ruthless, or rudely arrogant and still qualify as a conservative."
Right, like I said Machiavellian. Pretending to be something you aren't in front of the cameras.
"Thus in a famous review of "Atlas Shrugged” Whittaker Chambers, then associate editor of the National Review, read Miss Ayn Rand, the author, completely out of the conservative movement. "Out of a lifetime of reading," Chambers wrote, "I can recall no other book in which the tone of overriding arrogance was so implacably sustained." And the National Review itself publicly excommunicated Robert Welch first because the editors found his conspiratorial theories to be unsound, and second because to keep silent about Mr. Welch under the circumstances might seem to give consent to his unsound ideas."
I'd need more reading to translate this. It's bedtime right now.
"I said that conservatism is a dissent, and you will find in this book that it is a dissent against ideas and persons that attempt to enslave the individual."
If this is what you hold too OR, why do you keep defending Bush?
[ December 28, 2005, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: poncho ]
This has changed, big business runs the government be it under republican or democrat control.
"Conservatism is individualism, which is to say, personal freedom."
Nope, conservatives seemed to have fallin into collectivism same as the liberals.
"But the individual has an obligation to use his freedom. never to abuse it, as some of our demonstrators of today have abused and debased the freedom of speech."
I agree with the first part, the second, well lets just say that all demonstrators are not evil or anti government or even liberals. That's a fallacy the "liberal media" which once again is owned and controlled by conservative corporatists like to put in peoples minds.
"The ideal state, says the conservative, is one which recognizes that freedom is not given to anybody by his government, but is protected by the laws of the land, as well as by the policeman on the corner. The state, as the conservative sees it, ought to be the servant and the convenience of the free citizen."
That's how I see it, apparently Clinton and Bush see it differently probably because both rely on the citizens being indoctrinated into collectivism for their policies to seem reasonable.
"The state is not even a leader, or should not be because it always fails in such efforts except in time of war."
Maybe this is why Goerge W. Bush wanted to be a "war president".
"The welfare laws have merely perpetuated the poverty and idleness of the supposed beneficiaries. While no conservative could be an anarchist, he would eternally be for a government that is as unobtrusive as possible."
That's what they say while creating more bureaucracies that just don't work or take to long to get into action and waste mountains of tax money. FEMA, Homeland Security?
"A good many conservatives — two or three in this volume — came to their present beliefs by way of Communism, the god that failed them. Not all of them embraced the Christian religion by way of reaction. As Buckley notes, it is possible for a conservative to disbelieve in a personal God, but it is impossible for a conservative to despise God. The surest synonym, — if there is any — for conservatism is morality. A man cannot be a materialist, or an egocentric, or utterly ruthless, or rudely arrogant and still qualify as a conservative."
Right, like I said Machiavellian. Pretending to be something you aren't in front of the cameras.
"Thus in a famous review of "Atlas Shrugged” Whittaker Chambers, then associate editor of the National Review, read Miss Ayn Rand, the author, completely out of the conservative movement. "Out of a lifetime of reading," Chambers wrote, "I can recall no other book in which the tone of overriding arrogance was so implacably sustained." And the National Review itself publicly excommunicated Robert Welch first because the editors found his conspiratorial theories to be unsound, and second because to keep silent about Mr. Welch under the circumstances might seem to give consent to his unsound ideas."
I'd need more reading to translate this. It's bedtime right now.
"I said that conservatism is a dissent, and you will find in this book that it is a dissent against ideas and persons that attempt to enslave the individual."
If this is what you hold too OR, why do you keep defending Bush?
[ December 28, 2005, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: poncho ]
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
This is a ridiculous poll. It's irrational and doesn't provide options for voting for one side or the othe. By the way, when did you stop beating your wife?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Because it was either him or Gore/Kerry. Enough said.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The first person in favor of killing unborn children finally voted. Curious to see if they have the guts to give their identify.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Guess not!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Because it was either him or Gore/Kerry. Enough said. </font>[/QUOTE]How conservative.
poncho
Well-Known Member
Because it was either him or Gore/Kerry. Enough said. </font>[/QUOTE]How conservative.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Because it was either him or Gore/Kerry. Enough said. </font>[/QUOTE]How conservative.
Someone needs to let the President, and the majority of Congress know what Ben Franklin said, because they all seem to think we are a Democracy, and have been working for many years to move us closer to a Democracy. It doesn't look like we are heeding Mr. Franklins words, and keeping it.
Ditto. And, I might add, I don't hate him, but I do HATE the fact he hasn't found it necessary to protect our borders when we are fighting as Bush calls it (his words, not mine) "war on terrorism."
AND, the Road Map from Hell.
BTW, GW Bush is NOT a conservative. Poncho is right.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Good one Ponch
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
There is some truth to what you say. The Federal Gov. takes money from the people who have it, keep a share, and distribute the rest of it. However, you are incorrect we have a judicial oligarchy.
poncho
Well-Known Member
What we have in the judicial branch is collectivist judges making rulings on a constitution written by individualists for individualists for the most part.
As far as oligarchy goes thats more of global proportions. As much as we'd all like to think that the POTUS and congress runs the country and writes the policies for America, nothing could be further from the truth. The last four administrations were loaded with "expert" policy advisors from two exclusive clubs of globalists that think national sovereignty and independent nation are dirty words. Both parties have a role to play in bringing the North American Community into being. Not much longer now and there will be no need for them to even pretend that America is an independent nation because it will be absorbed even further into the one world government than it is now.
The POTUS is nothing more than a vassal of the global autocrats. Doesn't matter how much less evil you vote for you are still voting for a figurehead that is controlled by un-American interests.
As far as oligarchy goes thats more of global proportions. As much as we'd all like to think that the POTUS and congress runs the country and writes the policies for America, nothing could be further from the truth. The last four administrations were loaded with "expert" policy advisors from two exclusive clubs of globalists that think national sovereignty and independent nation are dirty words. Both parties have a role to play in bringing the North American Community into being. Not much longer now and there will be no need for them to even pretend that America is an independent nation because it will be absorbed even further into the one world government than it is now.
The POTUS is nothing more than a vassal of the global autocrats. Doesn't matter how much less evil you vote for you are still voting for a figurehead that is controlled by un-American interests.