FYI, you're not! 'The clique' I've in mind are those whose consistent strategy is to unjustly malign or accuse those holding views contrary to their's. Anything to put the opposition in a bad light. I've never known you to do that.
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Poll: For whom did Christ die?
- Thread starter asterisktom
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FYI, you're not! 'The clique' I've in mind are those whose consistent strategy is to unjustly malign or accuse those holding views contrary to their's. Anything to put the opposition in a bad light. I've never known you to do that.
And Calvinists on this board don't do that? I think it's the pot calling the kettle black.
I have had my salvation questioned more than once by Calvinists on this board. So it goes both ways.
Marcia
Active Member
I think that arguably, he could die for those who would not believe. The atonement was for all sins -- "once for all." But forgiveness only comes through faith. I agree Jesus advocates only for those who believe in Him, but this does not mean he died only for them.
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. Heb. 2:9
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14
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Amy, check my posts in the archives. Find me one post where I've initiated a malicious attack on someone and I will profusely apologize. And don't confuse me 'calling a spade a spade' with a malicious attack. It ain't in me to sit back and let someone wrongly accuse or slander me whether direct or subtle, or others for the matter. I've always stood up for what I think is right my whole life. And there's been a few times I've wished I kept my mouth shut.
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I did not mean you personally. I'm sorry if you took it that way.
You made the statement that there is a clique on the board whose objective is to malign those who have a different view. My point is that Calvinists on this board do the same maligning. Not you, but some.
You've always been kind to me. I appreciate that.
I did not mean you personally. I'm sorry if you took it that way.
You made the statement that there is a clique on the board whose objective is to malign those who have a different view. My point is that Calvinists on this board do the same maligning. Not you, but some.
You've always been kind to me. I appreciate that.
Thank you Amy. I've found you to be respectful to me and others also.
Thank you Amy. I've found you to be respectful to me and others also.
That's why I would rather shut up on an argument at times when it's Amy, than try and win it.:flower:
Tom Butler
New Member
Okay, got it. And thanks for not including me.
Again, our position is not what God did; but when did He do it and therefore on what basis did He do it.
If God saved some men "before" the foundation of the world; then He did it on the basis of a simple decision that some would be saved and some would not.
However if God saved some men "from" the foundation of the world' then He does it on the basis of His foreknowledge of their heart.
So thus indeed Christ did die for all.
Which is it?
Were saved men placed "in Christ" before creation, then after the fall they reverted to being "in Adam" then again recovered back and put back "in Christ"?
Or were all men born in sin, "in Adam" and then placed "in Christ" after they were saved?
Can we just avoid the many passage that teach the later in favor of the former?
These were offered as illustrations of how many passages must be avoided which conflict with a private theology for scripture interprets scripture, in other words no interpretation of scripture can conflict with other scripture.
Olegig, I erroneously posted on the wrong thread which resulted in you responding on the wrong thread. Sorry. I've reposted on the correct thread now (I hope).
Very understandable my friend.
Ok, maybe we can start over??? Just go to #50 of this thread and we can go from there.......
......He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world.....according to the good pleasure of His will, Eph 1:4,5
I'm sorry, but no. And I don't mean to be disrespectful but I've neither the time or desire or gray matter right now (maybe later) to get into yet another extended C/A discussion while my thoughts are somewhere else.
Originally Posted by olegig
Again, our position is not what God did; but when did He do it and therefore on what basis did He do it.
Which is it?
Were saved men placed "in Christ" before creation, then after the fall they reverted to being "in Adam" then again recovered back and put back "in Christ"?
Or were all men born in sin, "in Adam" and then placed "in Christ" after they were saved?
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
I do agree that before the foundation of the world God chose those of us who are in him to be holy and without blame before Him in love.
And I do agree God set our destiny before hand (predestinated) to be adopted as children by Jesus Christ to Himself.
And I also agree He did all this according to His good pleasure.
But I see nothing in the passage that would place some in Christ before the foundation of the world, then back in Adam, then back in Christ at real time conversion.
The passage does not say: "He did choose to put us in Him..."
I only wish to address this one very important topic of when did God decide upon whom to place His election, calling, heart pricking, etc. and why did He pick some and not others.
Again, our position is not what God did; but when did He do it and therefore on what basis did He do it.
Which is it?
Were saved men placed "in Christ" before creation, then after the fall they reverted to being "in Adam" then again recovered back and put back "in Christ"?
Or were all men born in sin, "in Adam" and then placed "in Christ" after they were saved?
Ephesians 1:4-5 (King James Version)
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
I do agree that before the foundation of the world God chose those of us who are in him to be holy and without blame before Him in love.
And I do agree God set our destiny before hand (predestinated) to be adopted as children by Jesus Christ to Himself.
And I also agree He did all this according to His good pleasure.
But I see nothing in the passage that would place some in Christ before the foundation of the world, then back in Adam, then back in Christ at real time conversion.
The passage does not say: "He did choose to put us in Him..."
No disrespect taken at all for neither do I wish an extended C/B discussion.I'm sorry, but no. And I don't mean to be disrespectful but I've neither the time or desire or gray matter right now (maybe later) to get into yet another extended C/A discussion while my thoughts are somewhere else.
I only wish to address this one very important topic of when did God decide upon whom to place His election, calling, heart pricking, etc. and why did He pick some and not others.
We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Jesus was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world ,but at the RIGHT TIME Christ died for the ungodly " Romans 5:6". Example, Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Once I was not in Christ "real time"and was placed in Christ "real time" at conversion but in Gods mind it was marked out before it happened.
No doubt you are basing this on Eph 1:4 to which I have offered a different interpretation.
So, which interpretation is correct yours or mine?
Sometimes these complicated verses need a little help in understanding from other passages for no scripture is of private interpretation.
I think the preponderance of other passages dealing with the topic are greatly in favor of my interpretation.
Do you have any other passage, other than just this one vague passage, that might enforce your position that God decreed before the foundation of the world who would be saved and who would be lost?
Awh,,,,,,,I see, so now you can read the mind of God.
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olegig Quote: "Do you have any other passage, other than just this one vague passage, that might enforce your position that God decreed before the foundation of the world who would be saved and who would be lost?"
Do you understand the "vague" passage I gave you?
olegig Quote:"Awh,,,,,,,I see, so now you can read the mind of God" The Bible does reveal the mind of God on matters......search the scriptures.
Do you understand the "vague" passage I gave you?
olegig Quote:"Awh,,,,,,,I see, so now you can read the mind of God" The Bible does reveal the mind of God on matters......search the scriptures.
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Yes, and I would refer you to post 54 for the interpretation.
I also understand the many passages in support of that interpretation that show the saved are placed in Christ only after they believe.
I acknowledged you have a different interpretation, so now it would seem your move would be to show other passages in support of your position that would show folks are placed in Christ before creation of the world.
I agree with Olegig. Notice how many times it speaks of "in him" or "in Christ" or "in the beloved" in Ephesians 1.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
And if you read chapter 2 you will also see numerous times where it says we receive everything "in Christ".
This is one of the problems of Calvinism, it teaches God elected men outside of Christ. This cannot help but being seen as God showing favor to certain men, and also implies these men had some sort of merit with God.
This doctrine centers on the believer, not Christ. But if it is understood that God in his foreknowledge sees who will believe in Jesus and elects them, all the favor and merit is of Christ.
The story of Mephibosheth in the OT shows how it truly works, David had made a covenant with Jonathan. When Saul and Jonathan were killed David sought out Jonathan's family that he might bless them for the covenant he had with Jonathan. Mephibosheth held no merit with David, it was only because he was Jonathan's son that David blessed him.
2 Sam 4:4 And Jonathan, Saul's son, had a son that was lame of his feet. He was five years old when the tidings came of Saul and Jonathan out of Jezreel, and his nurse took him up, and fled: and it came to pass, as she made haste to flee, that he fell, and became lame. And his name was Mephibosheth.
2 Sam 9:1 And David said, Is there yet any that is left of the house of Saul, that I may shew him kindness for Jonathan's sake?
2 And there was of the house of Saul a servant whose name was Ziba. And when they had called him unto David, the king said unto him, Art thou Ziba? And he said, Thy servant is he.
3 And the king said, Is there not yet any of the house of Saul, that I may shew the kindness of God unto him? And Ziba said unto the king, Jonathan hath yet a son, which is lame on his feet.
4 And the king said unto him, Where is he? And Ziba said unto the king, Behold, he is in the house of Machir, the son of Ammiel, in Lodebar.
5 Then king David sent, and fetched him out of the house of Machir, the son of Ammiel, from Lodebar.
6 Now when Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, was come unto David, he fell on his face, and did reverence. And David said, Mephibosheth. And he answered, Behold thy servant!
7 And David said unto him, Fear not: for I will surely shew thee kindness for Jonathan thy father's sake, and will restore thee all the land of Saul thy father; and thou shalt eat bread at my table continually.
God does not elect us unconditionally as Calvinism teaches, but God does not elect us for any merit of our own as well. We receive the kindness and favor of God through being "in Christ' and for Christ's sake, just as David showed favor and kindness to Mephibosheth for Jonathan his father's sake.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
And if you read chapter 2 you will also see numerous times where it says we receive everything "in Christ".
This is one of the problems of Calvinism, it teaches God elected men outside of Christ. This cannot help but being seen as God showing favor to certain men, and also implies these men had some sort of merit with God.
This doctrine centers on the believer, not Christ. But if it is understood that God in his foreknowledge sees who will believe in Jesus and elects them, all the favor and merit is of Christ.
The story of Mephibosheth in the OT shows how it truly works, David had made a covenant with Jonathan. When Saul and Jonathan were killed David sought out Jonathan's family that he might bless them for the covenant he had with Jonathan. Mephibosheth held no merit with David, it was only because he was Jonathan's son that David blessed him.
2 Sam 4:4 And Jonathan, Saul's son, had a son that was lame of his feet. He was five years old when the tidings came of Saul and Jonathan out of Jezreel, and his nurse took him up, and fled: and it came to pass, as she made haste to flee, that he fell, and became lame. And his name was Mephibosheth.
2 Sam 9:1 And David said, Is there yet any that is left of the house of Saul, that I may shew him kindness for Jonathan's sake?
2 And there was of the house of Saul a servant whose name was Ziba. And when they had called him unto David, the king said unto him, Art thou Ziba? And he said, Thy servant is he.
3 And the king said, Is there not yet any of the house of Saul, that I may shew the kindness of God unto him? And Ziba said unto the king, Jonathan hath yet a son, which is lame on his feet.
4 And the king said unto him, Where is he? And Ziba said unto the king, Behold, he is in the house of Machir, the son of Ammiel, in Lodebar.
5 Then king David sent, and fetched him out of the house of Machir, the son of Ammiel, from Lodebar.
6 Now when Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, was come unto David, he fell on his face, and did reverence. And David said, Mephibosheth. And he answered, Behold thy servant!
7 And David said unto him, Fear not: for I will surely shew thee kindness for Jonathan thy father's sake, and will restore thee all the land of Saul thy father; and thou shalt eat bread at my table continually.
God does not elect us unconditionally as Calvinism teaches, but God does not elect us for any merit of our own as well. We receive the kindness and favor of God through being "in Christ' and for Christ's sake, just as David showed favor and kindness to Mephibosheth for Jonathan his father's sake.
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
You could not be more wrong. You have, again, demonstrated that you have not the first clue of what or how we believe. Sad.
The Archangel