Poll: Tongues

[Ben W]

Refer to John 1:1, the Word is Jesus, the Bible is the word with a small w.

The canon was most certainley not completed with the completion of the Book of Revelation in the first century, the church was spreading out across the globe and there was no such thing as paper, hence individuals did not have copies of any completed canon to preach from. In fact, as the Bible itself uses references too, the book of Enoch was being used in the early church also.

It was not until the Eleventh Century that the Russian Church had a Bible that was placed in there churches and copies made available to people that anything like a canon became available, in our modern era it was not until 1611 that a canon of scripture became available to Anglo Saxon people.

Study church history, Tounges are recorded as being used in the third century, miracles too.

Also, I maintain that Jesus is "Perfect", which means absolultley completely free from error. There is no version or revision of the Bible that is free from any error in translation, what we are being presented is good, but not perfect as Jesus is.

Show me in the Bible where it says that the Canon is the Perfect Word of God?

 

[johnd]

Hi johnd here,
Hi DHK Contradiction and Hypocrisy,OH yes you are Right, But not all, It`s The majority of the hypocrits, prays The Lord it Has been reveled to you, DHK I for One am Not One of though Hypocrits, I Speak IN tonges, But it must Be done Desently And in arder, AM not serprised that you do not beleive in THE Speaking in Tonges
when there are so meny Lies (OUT THERE)DHK I Speak in tonges and it is not a Lie if you would Like I could explane to you in a Email; To you if not, Then Tufluck you will have to answer to the Lord,

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ben W:
Refer to John 1:1, the Word is Jesus, the Bible is the word with a small w.
"to teleion" is in the neuter, no questions asked. It does not refer to Christ. Christ is a man, not an it. Likewise the word logos is masculine (John 1:1). But there are many words for "word," some of which are neuter, as the book itself does not take a specific gender.

The greatest argument here is the context. The context is revelation--the revelation of the Word of God. The three gifts mentioned in 13:8 are revelatory gifts having to do with God's revelation, the Word of God. That which is perfect is God's revelation, the Bible, the Word of God. Chapter 14 carries on the discussion of revelation, contrasting two different types of revelation: tongues and prophesy, and clearly pointing out the usefulness of one (prophesy) over the other. The enrire context here is revelation, not Jesus Christ.

[QB]

The canon was most certainley not completed with the completion of the Book of Revelation in the first century,

You are not making much sense here. The book of Revelation was the last book to be written (approximately 98 A.D.). And with that the canon was complete. It is that simple. No one claimed that all of a sudden all the believers had a completed Bible as we do today. They had a completed canon. The canon was completed by God, not by man. Not everyone had access to it then, and not everyone has access to it today. In fact the Bible still is not translated into every language of the world.

the church was spreading out across the globe and there was no such thing as paper, hence individuals did not have copies of any completed canon to preach from.

Yes, and Guttenberg hadn't invented the printing press either. The most common method of reproducing the Word, was scribes copying it on papyrus, a paper-like scroll made out of the weeds that grew in the marshes. More expensive copies were made on velum, from the hides of animals.
The Old Testament was completed by 450 B.C., and a complete translation in Greek (the Septuagint) made in 250 B.C. As Christianity grew, Christians took whatever scroll they had, O.T. and N.T. and travelled with them. When I travel (within the city), I don't always carry the "completed word of God" with me. Sometimes I have just the New Testament, and sometimes just the Book of Romans and John. Just because I don't personally have the completed Word of God with me, doesn't mean that the "completed Word of God" doesn't exist. Yet this is your logic here.

In fact, as the Bible itself uses references too, the book of Enoch was being used in the early church also.

Yes of course it does. The authors of the Bible were not ignorant men. They were well educated men that could quote from Biblical sources, and in some cases sources outside the Bible. Paul quoted from a Greek poet and from a Cretian prophet.

It was not until the Eleventh Century that the Russian Church had a Bible that was placed in there churches and copies made available to people that anything like a canon became available, in our modern era it was not until 1611 that a canon of scripture became available to Anglo Saxon people.

Do you think with any luck the Punjabi speaking people of Pakistan will get a Bible in their own langauge by the end of the 21st Century? It hasn't happened yet. So the Russian Church was privileged enough to have a translation 11 centuries earlier, or almost 11 centuries after the death of Christ.

Study church history, Tounges are recorded as being used in the third century, miracles too.

Yes, mostly by heretical sects. Speaking in tongues among the unsaved heathen is often a direct result of demon possession.

Also, I maintain that Jesus is "Perfect", which means absolultley completely free from error. There is no version or revision of the Bible that is free from any error in translation, what we are being presented is good, but not perfect as Jesus is.

"to telion" more accurately has the meaning of completed, as the Old English word "perfect" means. "When that which is 'perfected' or 'completed' is come." Jesus didn't need to be completed. He already was. The translation doesn't even make sense by inserting Christ in there. Besides, as noted before, it doesn't do justice to the context. The context is revelation, not Christ. Keep things in context. You can make the Bible say anything you want to, when you take things out of context.

Show me in the Bible where it says that the Canon is the Perfect Word of God?

God's Word is perfect; it always has been.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by johnd:
Hi johnd here,
Hi DHK Contradiction and Hypocrisy,OH yes you are Right, But not all, It`s The majority of the hypocrits, prays The Lord it Has been reveled to you, DHK I for One am Not One of though Hypocrits, I Speak IN tonges, But it must Be done Desently And in arder, AM not serprised that you do not beleive in THE Speaking in Tonges
when there are so meny Lies (OUT THERE)DHK I Speak in tonges and it is not a Lie if you would Like I could explane to you in a Email; To you if not, Then Tufluck you will have to answer to the Lord,

I answer to the Lord every day, as I pray and study the Scripture. One thing I don't do is live my life according to my experiences as the Charismatics do. By and large they base their theology on their experience. Experience becomes their foundation instead of the Word of God. Thus it results in a very confused theology. A case in point is the theology of Benny Hinn. If you want to know more about his heresies start another thread about him.

The Bible teaches that tongues have ceased. I don't need experience or the lack thereof to teach me that. The Bible teaches that. The prevailing logic among Charismatics here is: You need to stick your head in a garbage pail to find out if it is dirty, otherwise how would you know if you haven't experienced it?
Isn't that your theology concerning tongues?
Or, Don't knock LSD or Cocaine if you haven't tried it.
You're telling me the same thing about tongues, right? Sorry, I can find out about cocaine, LSD, and tongues without dabbling in any of the above.
My foundation is the Word of God. That is the standard by which I measure all things--not your experience, neither anyone elses.

If the Bible teaches that tongues have ceased (as I believe they do), then you will give account someday for your actions. Have you considered what you will give account for? If tongues have ceased then what are you doing? It is not speaking in tongues, and whatever it is, it is not of God. If it is not of God, then where is it from?
Is it any wonder that almost every New Testament author warned us to beware of deceivers and false prophets.
"Beware lest any man deceive you."
DHK

 

[Ben W]

Explain to me DHK how "Law" and "Canon" are used interchangably?

Gods Law existed in the Old Testament, was replaced by the New Convenant which all occured prior to toungues being used in the church.

 

[tamborine lady]

See guys, I knew he would explain it to you!!

It's not right, but thats his scrambled explanation. You may as well quit DHK, I don't think they are buying into it!!

It's to late to convince me, I already speak in tongues, and once you have the TRUE gift, you know the truth about it and it sets you free!!!


Praise the Lord!!

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ben W:
Explain to me DHK how "Law" and "Canon" are used interchangably?

Gods Law existed in the Old Testament, was replaced by the New Convenant which all occured prior to toungues being used in the church.

I am not sure what you are getting at. There are many words in the Bible that refer to God's Word. Read Psalm 119. Every verse with the exception of just one or two, speak of God's Word and have a word in it directly referring to the Word of God, whether it be law, precepts, judgements, words, etc. The Scriptures refer the Word of God in different terminology.

The word canon on the other hand is a man-made term. It comes from the Hebrew word "qaneh" which referred to a certain reed that grew in the marshes near the Nile River. This reed was known for its quality of being very straight and sturdy. Thus it was often used for the purpose of measurement. Just as this reed (qaneh) was used for measurement, so the "canon" became establised by the direction of God, as to what should be included and not be included by a set of guidelines that had been put forth by Godly people--the prophets of the Old Testament, and the Apostles of the New Testament.

People of today leave God out of the picture. They think that God was too dumb to know what his own revelation and completed canon was, thus he had to leave it up to the Catholic Church to decide for God what it was. Ludicrous! God knew what the canon of Scripture was along. To say anything else is blasphemous. I go a step farther and can prove it from Scripture. The Apostles themselves knew what the canon was. They knew which books were inspired, and passed that knowledge on to early believers. It was only false teachers that arose soon after the demise of the Apostles that tried to confuse the church with certain forgeries. True believers knew which books were truly inspired, and which were not. They were taught by the Apostles who to believe, and how to discern a false teacher.

2 Peter 3:1-2 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
--Peter says that you remember the words spoken by the Apostles; that they are of the same importance of the prophets of the Old Testament, i.e., inspired.

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
--Peter recognized Paul's epistles as inspired Scripture. He knew which epistles were the Word of God and which were not.

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Scripture did not come by the will of man (councils, the RCC, etc.) but by holy men of God who spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. I believe that the early church had the guidance of the Apostles and of the Holy Spirit himself, that they knew which books these inspired were. They also knew how to spot a false teacher and his forgeries.

John refers to this.
1 John 2:26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[tamborine lady]

If you have answered this already DHK just tell me.(I may have missed it)

But Brian30755 asked:I'm sure you have a good answer for this, but I have to ask: Are you saying that basically NONE of Paul's writings apply to us today? Because almost everything he wrote was to a particular chuch or a particular group of Christians at a particular time.

I would like to see your answer to that myself.

Peace,

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

If you have answered this already DHK just tell me.(I may have missed it)

But Brian30755 asked:I'm sure you have a good answer for this, but I have to ask: Are you saying that basically NONE of Paul's writings apply to us today? Because almost everything he wrote was to a particular chuch or a particular group of Christians at a particular time.

I would like to see your answer to that myself.

Peace,

Tam

No of course not. There are certain things that happened at certain time periods in history and then ceased. The Jews worshiped in the tabernacle, but only for a temporary period of time. Then they had a Temple. But now they have no Temple.

God speaks to people in different ways at different times.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Verse one points out rather clearly that in the Old Testament God used different methods to speak to His people as he spoke through the prophets during those times. He used dreams, visions, audible voice, theophanies, etc. But now God does not work that way. We do not live in the Old Testament dispensation.

Now, in verse two, in these times, God speaks through His Son. If you want to learn about Christ, where do you go? You learn about Christ in the Word of God. God speaks to us through the Word of God. That is how God has chosen to reveal his Son to this generation.

God gave the power to Elijah to call fire from heaven and devour a sacrifice, the altar, the water around the altar; and then give him the strength to kill 450 prophets of Baal. Does God give you the power to call down such fire from Heaven. James and John thought so. Christ rebuked them for it.

All the Bible is applicable to us in one way or another. It is how we apply the Bible to us that is important. We must keep things in their context. The Lord gave strength to Samson as he submitted to the Lord, and His Spirit. When he disobeyed the Lord, the strength went from him. There is a lesson to be learned there. Does that mean I can go out and claim the same strength that Samson had? Of course not! Keep things in context. The Bible still remains applicable.

The New Testament believers never met in church buildings. Church buildings never came into existence until 250 A.D. So by your logic, either all of our churches are unbiblical, or all of the churches that Paul wrote to are unbiblical? Which?

There are some things that happened in the New Testament that are confined to the first century that will never happen again for the simple reason that Christ is not walking this earth, neither his Apostles. The gospels are a history of Jesus. We will never see the recorded miracles of Jesus again. They have ceasd. We will not see anyone walking on water, calming the sea, feeding 5,000 with a couple fishes and few loaves of bread, changing water into wine, etc. That just will not happen. The miracles of Christ will never be duplicated in our age.
The second historical book is the Book of Acts which record the Acts of the Apostles. This is a book of history where special miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to the apostles and some others of that age, as signs to the Jews of the authenticity of the gospel message. Up until the end of the first century when the Apostles died, and when the Word of God was complete these gifts were in operation. After that they ceased.

The Day of Pentecost, for example, was an historical event, a day in history never again to be repeated. It was foretold in the Old Testament that it would come to pass and it did. It will never happen again. You don't take doctrine from history. Again, the Book of Acts was a historical book, which records throughout a period of about 40 years the occrence of speaking in tongues only three times. Other than that in all the rest of the New Testament speaking in tongues is mentioned in only one book, and that is in the context to rebuke those that were abusing it, and also to direct the attention of those believers away from the use of that gift and more toward the gift of prophesy which was much more profitable. Even in the time of Paul, Paul did not encourage speaking in tongues.
DHK

 

[billwald]

The people I personally know who speak in tongues have a problem with thinking logically in plain English. They tend to have a lower education level and a lower income than other people I know.

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by billwald:
The people I personally know who speak in tongues have a problem with thinking logically in plain English. They tend to have a lower education level and a lower income than other people I know.

Really.... I never heard that kind of stereotyping before! I am a H/S graduate with some collage and as of late I'm attending a EMT/EMA 1st Responders class and have to maintain a 80% average to pass. (Not telling you this to brag and pat myself on the back, but to let you know that you can't stereotype people that way. That statement reminds me of something Archie Bunker would say.

)I have to admit I'm not filthy from rolling in dough but I have no needs that my Heavenly Father can't meet. BTW, I have met other Christians who also have struggles and guess what a few of them are Baptist.
So an appology or a retraction would be nice right about now. You can't rate people by thier smarts or wealth as to if they have the Bible doctrine straight. It is wrong.

Christians come in all shapes and sizes and denominations!

Music4Him

 

[tamborine lady]

Billwald said:The people I personally know who speak in tongues have a problem with thinking logically in plain English. They tend to have a lower education level and a lower income than other people I know.

I have been insulted in all different kinds of ways, but that one takes the cake. It seems to me that that is one of the things people used to say about African Americans. (that they weren't as smart as whites) And that is now labeled as racist and is against the law!! Now we see college professors and Sec. of State, and supreme court Judges that are black. So don't try to use thar kind of logic on me, because it won't work!!!

I can think just as good as anyone on this board and I am agreeing with Music4Him.

AN APOLOGY WOULD REALLY BE GREAT ABOUT NOW!!!

Tamborine Lady

 

[prophecynut]

Must compliment DHK on his clear and accurate presentation of the Word of God.

Paul, in his letters to the Corinthians said: "Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air" (1 Cor. 14:9). Tongues uttered today is gibberish that no one, including God, can understand. Instead of giving comfort to others they rather satisfy their egoistic self and think "like children" (V. 20).

In churches today tongues are spoken by believers and interpreted by believers, yet this contradicts Paul's teaching that tongues are for unbelievers and prophecy is for believers (V. 22).

Paul said he was not "inferior to the 'super - apostles'" that performed "signs, wonders and miracles" (2 Cor.12:11-12). Those speaking in tongues today are comparing themselves to Paul and counterfeiting the works of the Holy Spirit.

Bad boy, bad boy, whacha gonna do when He comes for you.

 

[prophecynut]

Correction, my brain shorted out, I left out the "not" in "can not understand" in second paragraph.

 

[Brian30755]

The people I personally know who speak in tongues have a problem with thinking logically in plain English. They tend to have a lower education level and a lower income than other people I know.

Okay, what if I said: "The people I know who are Baptists may make a lot of money and drive nice cars, but they are spiritually dead. In fact, at a Baptist church I used to attend, a man had a heart attack during the service. The EMT's arrived and carried out 3 people before they found the right guy. Most Baptists think they are saved because some Vacation Bible School teacher told them to repeat a prayer when they were 6 years old....but most of them have no idea what it is to have a real relationship with Jesus. They get mad if their service goes past 12:00 on Sunday.....you need to get to the restaurant first if you don't want to have to wait in line. It takes 17 committee meetings at a Baptist church to decide if they'll have 1-ply or 2-ply toilet paper in the bathrooms."

Of course, being raised in a Southern Baptist Church, I would never say these things. It's not a good thing to stereotype people.

 

[Ben W]

DHK, without quoting your response because it is a little to long, you are saying prior that, that which is perfect is the Canon of Scripture, yet you then suggest that the Canon is a man made term. Yet the basis of your argument is that which is perfect is the Canon.

The Law and the New Covenant were both established before speaking in toungues. There was nothing to wait for.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ben W:
DHK, without quoting your response because it is a little to long, you are saying prior that, that which is perfect is the Canon of Scripture, yet you then suggest that the Canon is a man made term. Yet the basis of your argument is that which is perfect is the Canon.

The Law and the New Covenant were both established before speaking in toungues. There was nothing to wait for.

Your not making sense. Since the word "canon" is a source of confusion for some let me explain it this way.

There were specific reasons why the spiritual gifts were given in the first century, especially those designated "sign gifts."
First, they attested the veracity of the message of the Apostle, and secondly of the Apostle himself.
Thirdly, they were a temporary source of revelation given to New Testament believers until the New Testament (canon) or the Bible was completed. The believers of that century did not have all the books of the Bible, or even access to them. Therefore the Holy Spirit gave to the churches: revelatory knowledge, prophecy, and tongues (real foreign languages that took the place of prophecy, just in another language), to give to these believers the knowledge that we now have in the completed Word of God. That Word of God only became completed after 98 A.D. when the Book of Revelation was written.
Remember it was then completed. Completion and accessibility are two different things, and remain two different things today. Not everyone today has access to the entire Word of God. In many languages only the New Testament, and in some only parts of the New Testament are translated. Such was the case in Corinth. They probably had access to the Gospel of Matthew and the Book of James, and that is about it. Those were two of the first books written. Thus other revelation was given by these revelatory gifts mentioned in 1Cor.13:8

Another purpose of tongues, (a very important one) was that it was a sign to the Jews (1Cor.14:21,22). Peter in his sermon in Acts 2 verifies the same, as he refers back to the prophecy in Joel 2:28. "This is that which is fulfilled by the prophet Joel" It was a sign to the Jews. Paul quoted from Isaiah 28 in fulfillment of the prophecy. The Jews would see the gentiles speaking God's message in another language other than their own, and they would still not believe. That is what it said in Isaiah, and that is what came to pass. It was a sign not only to the Jew (vs.21), but specifically the unbelieving Jew (vs.22). Thus, if there are not first century unbelieving Jews in your church tongues are unscriptural. Tongues are unscriptural on this point alone. The purpose of tongues has been outlived. It is a sign to the Jews. They did not believe that sign. And they suffered judgement for it. Their Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

The completion of the Bible, the chance for the first century Jews that crucified Christ to believe, all came to an end at the end of the first century. At the same time these gifts ceased, as was told by Paul in 1Cor. 13:8

When that which is perfect (complete) [the Bible] was come than that which was in part (the temporary spiritual gifts (prophecy, tongues, revelatory knowledge) were done away.
Those gifts had only a temporary purpose, and for more than just one reason, as I pointed out above.
DHK

 

[Ben W]

DHK you said - Thirdly, they were a temporary source of revelation given to New Testament believers until the New Testament (canon) or the Bible was completed

Where does it say this in the Bible?

 

[Brian30755]

The people I personally know who speak in tongues have a problem with thinking logically in plain English. They tend to have a lower education level and a lower income than other people I know.

One more thought on this. Do you not realize that many, many people say THE SAME THING about YOU simply because you are a Christian???

 

[Gershom]

Where does the Bible teach that tongues have ceased, and when?