Poor Pilates Plight

[preacher4truth]

Where is his free will?

He could not do but what God had decreed he to do.

The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God." Therefore when Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid; and he entered into the Praetorium again and said to Jesus, "Where are you from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." John 19:7-11 NASB

Pilate could do nothing other than what God had determined him to do? Where was his free will? Pilate wanted to release him, but could not do it!

Others on here say God doesn't know what is going to happen until it happens? That is blatant irreverence toward God. It is unbiblical and unfounded in the Word. It does not exalt God because it is an outright mistruth, and rather than exalt Him it brings Him down to the God forbidden level of man.

God had already known all of what would happen here in this text.

Pilate could only do what God had foreordained he do.

Free will? Nope.

I think this is scary to free willers, and hyper-willers because perhaps they think they chose God against God's will for them to do so, in other words, fear they are not elect.

This is a real, tangible fear in the minds of men.

God is in complete control. This causes men to fear, and causes some men to even become angry with God.

I still claim and maintain Kenneth Copeland takes you hyper-willers and free-willers theology to the logical absurd conclusion: That you think you are in control of your destiny, and that God cannot act until you make some decision, or as you say, choose.

The Bible teaches quite the contrary.

 

[InTheLight]

I still claim and maintain Kenneth Copeland takes you hyper-willers and free-willers theology to the logical absurd conclusion: That you think you are in control of your destiny, and that God cannot act until you make some decision, or as you say, choose.

Strawman argument.

 

[preacher4truth]

Strawman argument.

Many people love to go straw man and ad hominem to ad nauseam.

You've failed to think. My apologies to you. Your "straw man" accusation is in itself a straw man. (an attempt to disregard and misrepresent me)

Straw man? Not at all. This is a perfect representation of the flawed logic that; persons have to choose in order for God to be able to work. Copeland takes this illogic to the absurd level, that God is powerless unless we choose to allow Him in. Free willers also say the same thing; that unless we choose, there is nothing God can do to save us. It's the same conclusion although Copeland goes to other extremes with this error.

This is no misrepresentation of either Copelands theology, nor of it's direct relation to free willers logic that we must choose God, versus He choosing us.

Free willers: We must choose God or He cannot save us.

Copeland theology: If we don't choose or invite God, He cannot do anything.

It's the same principle. The two fallacies place all the power upon our choosing.

I know it hurts. Truth does. Whether you admit to the connection or not is just you simply turning a blind eye to that connection.

Also, there is more to this post than Copelandism/free willers. Feel "free" to comment on that part. No need to attempt to throw it all out because you fail to grasp it.

- Blessings

 

[webdog]

Strawman argument.

He's quite good at that. Word of caution, he'll probably start sending you nasty PM's now that you called him out on such foolishness. He likes to fight with everyone. Hard to believe that is the demeanor of a pastor.

 

[Jarthur001]

Many people love to go straw man ........

I agree 100%

To cry straw man with no defense as to why it is a straw man is not to answer at all. Many (I'm not saying the InTheLight) use this when they have no debate to make. If the defense is not given as to why it is a straw man, I would say that the argument has failed.

 

[Luke2427]

Where is his free will?

He could not do but what God had decreed he to do.

The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God." Therefore when Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid; and he entered into the Praetorium again and said to Jesus, "Where are you from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." John 19:7-11 NASB

Pilate could do nothing other than what God had determined him to do? Where was his free will? Pilate wanted to release him, but could not do it!

Others on here say God doesn't know what is going to happen until it happens? That is blatant irreverence toward God. It is unbiblical and unfounded in the Word. It does not exalt God because it is an outright mistruth, and rather than exalt Him it brings Him down to the God forbidden level of man.

God had already known all of what would happen here in this text.

Pilate could only do what God had foreordained he do.

Free will? Nope.

I think this is scary to free willers, and hyper-willers because perhaps they think they chose God against God's will for them to do so, in other words, fear they are not elect.

This is a real, tangible fear in the minds of men.

God is in complete control. This causes men to fear, and causes some men to even become angry with God.

I still claim and maintain Kenneth Copeland takes you hyper-willers and free-willers theology to the logical absurd conclusion: That you think you are in control of your destiny, and that God cannot act until you make some decision, or as you say, choose.

The Bible teaches quite the contrary.

You are right. Pilate did what God determined Pilate would do.

This is a VERY plain truth in Scripture that God ordains and wills all that happens.

That does not exonerate man from responsibility.

Man does as he wills, but God predetermined everything that man does.

 

[preacher4truth]

I agree 100%

To cry straw man with no defense as to why it is a straw man is not to answer at all. Many (I'm not saying the InTheLight) use this when they have no debate to make. If the defense is not given as to why it is a straw man, I would say that the argument has failed.

Or he has no argument. He looks over the entirety of the argument, and Scriptures to go out on a "strawman" accusation. He threw in the towel.

In other words, he can't argue against Scripture and/or he never saw the connection of Copeland theology and free-willers and hyper-willers.

People are scared by this. It's unfortunate.

 

[preacher4truth]

You are right. Pilate did what God determined Pilate would do.

This is a VERY plain truth in Scripture that God ordains and wills all that happens.

That does not exonerate man from responsibility.

Man does as he wills, but God predetermined everything that man does.

Yep. I've been going through John again. I find it all amazing, and look at how God is in charge of everything.

God is simply awesome.

Some people won't grasp this, and see that it is God who does all of it, saving, predetermining, choosing, electing, calling, and He is all knowing in all of it. Anything less discredits the Godhead.

Pilate could only do what He was allowed to do. He had no free will in it. He actually got scared there in John 18-19.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yep. I've been going through John again. I find it all amazing, and look at how God is in charge of everything.

Indeed, John is a AMAZING book. I have been teaching in John for about 3 years and just now got to chapter 11. John is seen as easy read with simple Greek, and it is easy. But if you look close, John is maybe deeper than Paul. he just hides it behind simple words. Its hard to read a verse without seeing two maybe three messages going on. It just keeps blowing my mind.

Great Book

 

[preacher4truth]

Indeed, John is a AMAZING book. I have been teaching in John for about 3 years and just now got to chapter 11. John is seen as easy read with simple Greek, and it is easy. But if you look close, John is maybe deeper than Paul. he just hides it behind simple words. Its hard to read a verse without seeing two maybe three messages going on. It just keeps blowing my mind.

Great Book

Yes, great book, plus using the NASB and slowing way down thoughtfully has helped.

Very good reading!

 

[matt wade]

If God makes man do everything, then man isn't to blame for the sins he commits. Man therefore doesn't need a savior because man hasn't done anything wrong. He's just doing what God makes him do and what's wrong with that?

The church lady can just start saying "God made me do it".

 

[slave 4 Christ]

If God makes man do everything, then man isn't to blame for the sins he commits. Man therefore doesn't need a savior because man hasn't done anything wrong. He's just doing what God makes him do and what's wrong with that?

The church lady can just start saying "God made me do it".

This is an unfortunate mis-representation of the DoG.

Man does what he most wants to do.

God decreed and created mankind this way.

The problem is that, on account of the fall, what man wants to do is decide what he wants to do.

One might say that is right, I want God. I decide to go to God.

Hence the rub; because of the fall, man is now dead in his trespasses and sins and what he now wants is to flee from God's LIGHT.

The way God has chosen to save is to cause some to be made new, that they would be willing to come to Christ.

You say what about the rest....not to worry they are doing exactly what they most want to do.

The church lady could sing... "God made be willing to come to Him"

 

[David Lamb]

[snip]
The church lady can just start saying "God made me do it".

Sorry to show my ignorance, but which church lady?

 

[Zenas]

Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." John 19:7-11 NASB

Pilate could do nothing other than what God had determined him to do? Where was his free will? Pilate wanted to release him, but could not do it!

This quote from scripture shows nothing of the kind you suggest. It does not show that Pilate was a puppet on a string controlled by God. Rather, Jesus makes the statement that Pilate would not be Governor or Judea and have the power of life or death over Him but for God permitting it. There are much better proof texts you could have put up here, although for the life of me I can't understand the fervor with which you Calvinists peddle your ideas. What ever happened to "whosoever will"?

 

[Zenas]

Sorry to show my ignorance, but which church lady?

An American comedian named Dana Carvey used to do a parody of a pious and uppity lady who was very influential in a small church on the NBC show "Saturday Night Live." The character, as well as the routine, came to be known as the Church Lady. For all I know he still does it somewhere, although I haven't seen the routine lately.

 

[matt wade]

This is an unfortunate mis-representation of the DoG.

Man does what he most wants to do.

God decreed and created mankind this way.

The problem is that, on account of the fall, what man wants to do is decide what he wants to do.

One might say that is right, I want God. I decide to go to God.

Hence the rub; because of the fall, man is now dead in his trespasses and sins and what he now wants is to flee from God's LIGHT.

The way God has chosen to save is to cause some to be made new, that they would be willing to come to Christ.

You say what about the rest....not to worry they are doing exactly what they most want to do.

The church lady could sing... "God made be willing to come to Him"

You can't have it both ways brother. You say God makes a person come to him. The OP is about God making Pilate do what He wanted. By that line of reasoning, God makes man do everything. Calvinists continually say, well man just does what he wants to do and God adjusts those "wants". Well then, God is still responsible for the evil and sin in this world then because He makes man want to sin.

Again, you can't have it both ways. Either God is completely in control and treats man like a robot, or man has some freedom of activity.

You'll never hear an argument from me that God is unable to control us like robots, I just believe he chooses not to. God is all powerful, but that doesn't mean he exercises that power over every aspect of our lives.

 

[David Lamb]

An American comedian named Dana Carvey used to do a parody of a pious and uppity lady who was very influential in a small church on the NBC show "Saturday Night Live." The character, as well as the routine, came to be known as the Church Lady. For all I know he still does it somewhere, although I haven't seen the routine lately.

Thanks Zenas, and apologies to all American members who knew already!

 

[preacher4truth]

This quote from scripture shows nothing of the kind you suggest. It does not show that Pilate was a puppet on a string controlled by God. Rather, Jesus makes the statement that Pilate would not be Governor or Judea and have the power of life or death over Him but for God permitting it. There are much better proof texts you could have put up here, although for the life of me I can't understand the fervor with which you Calvinists peddle your ideas. What ever happened to "whosoever will"?

Zenas, none of this has to do with whosoever will. Stick with the context of what this passage teaches. There is no need to scoff, and head down a rabbit trail to another passage on another issue.

The fact is Pilate could only do what God had foreordained he do. You struggle with this. So did Pilate, as you will see when reading beyond the passage at hand. I think many, as you, don't like the Sovereign reign of God, but this is my guess and assumption when reading what you write.

Zenas, I am familiar with your hyper synergistic soteriology, as you well know, and as you are somewhat open about, thank you. Your theories on soteriology need not bias you on this text. My view of this text was the same as what I say now even prior to studying reformed thought. Any person reading this text can clearly see the truth. God, not Pilate, was in control of this scenario and outcome. He, Pilate, became quite fearful of this whole scenario, he saw he was not in control of any of it, thus those who delievered Jesus into his hands sinned more greatly than he. If you need to call Pilate a puppet, sobeit.

Nothing you've said dealt with the text at hand, all you've done is show disdain for Calvinism, or mine and others theological stance.

I know free willers certainly do not like to think that God is in control and Sovereign. Free willers like to be in control and thus demand their rights. They claim Him to be Sovereign, but in word and theology deny it to be so.

God is at the whim and choice of such as their puppet when this fallacy comes to it's illogical conclusion.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thanks Zenas, and apologies to all American members who knew already!

"Who gave you THAT idea...._____?" lol

:laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

God is all powerful, but that doesn't mean he exercises that power over every aspect of our lives.

It means exactly that.

God's omnipotence demands that he ordained and willed the fall.

Omnipotence says that God is ALL powerful. That means that ALL power is his. There is no power that exists that is not his.

The power a rose utilizes to open against the morning sun is God's power. God opens the rose.

The power to lift the plump bumble bee off the earth by tiny wings is God's power. God flies the bumble bee.

The power to contract the human arm is God's power. God contracts the human arm.

The power to chew and consume and digest food is God's power. God is masticating the food for the human. It is his power that tightens the jaw muscles, his power that breaks down the food, his power that enables peristalsis carrying the food to the belly, etc...

When Adam contracted the arm that brought the forbidden fruit to his own mouth- God contracted that arm. God powered the biceps that brought the forbidden fruit to the mouth of Adam.

When Adam bit into that fruit God flexed the jaw muscles.

Omnipotence demands that God is the ultimate cause behind everything.

Scripture says, In him we live and MOVE and have our being.

Scripture says, "He is before all things and by HIM ALL THINGS consist."

Scripture says, "For OF him and THROUGH him and TO him are ALL THINGS."

There is nothing that takes place that is not OF him.

No action that is not powered BY him.

There is no event that does not exist THROUGH him.

NONE.

God is all powerful and in COMPLETE control not just OVER all things but OF all things and IN all things.

That is the one true God.