Poor proof that Christ has a physical body now

[agedman]

I should hope not. It's VERY disheartening to see it even being discussed.

I would think that anytime a view is discussed, there should be both the opportunity to defend, and a very thorough examination of how the thinking realistically matches Scripture.

Too often folks, imo, are obstinately set in their opinion and no Scripture would dissuade them.

It doesn’t matter if it is eschatology or soteriology, rarely is there a drawing unde Scripture authority to a common consensus.

That is sad.

 

[kyredneck]

Too often folks, imo, are obstinately set in their opinion and no Scripture would dissuade them.

ROFL!!! NO KIDDING!!!

 

[TCassidy]

I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the early church councils didn't deal with this matter.

Yes. The Council of Nicea in 325 AD condemned Docetism.

 

[percho]

Agreed. Thus my thread, "Christology and Preterism."

I do believe that Scripture teaches that Christ will come physically, but that was not my point. I now have no idea how to get my point across to you. You keep misquoting, misrepresenting and misunderstanding me.

The "this generation" issue is not directly connected to my point r.e. the physical body of Jesus.

Of course I believe that the human spirit can live without the body. That was not my point. You've totally missed it once again.

Now we come down finally to the pressing question. Do you believe that the resurrected Jesus now has a physical body? A simple yes or no will suffice.

MY question. Was Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came in the flesh 1 John 4:2 buried, sown if you will, a natural body and was that natural body raised, resurrected if you will, a spiritual body?

Will he, and or did he if you are one of those, return is a spiritual or natural body of flesh and bone?

I believe he did not, but will, return in a spiritual body of flesh and bone.

Also I may be posting when I should be thinking and studying the matter more.

 

[percho]

Figurative or literal? "The Word was made Flesh."

Could I ask, flesh, in the context of Lev 17:11?

For that is my understanding and death came to the living soul Christ in that flesh and quickening came to the dead Christ in the Spirit.

That is how the life/soul, in his blood, made atonement for our souls, that is, our lives. He gave his life for our sins.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:17,18

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I believe the answer to the question "What kind of body does the Son currently have?" is answered by 1 Corinthians 15:39-41 and in particular verse 40.

 

[Aaron]

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

He still has a body that was sown a weak and natural body, but was raised a spiritual body. What that means is not truly understood and it's foolish to speculate. But it is a body with which he could eat some fish.

 

[prophecy70]

Mark 16:12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.

1st John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

How is this explained?

 

[John of Japan]

Yes. The Council of Nicea in 325 AD condemned Docetism.

Well remembered, Doc. I had forgotten the connection.

For the uninformed, here is Docetism (from my Survey of Church History textbook), which this thread (and full preterists) follow almost to a T:

"The word comes from a Greek verb, to seem. Some bright theologian has suggested we call it Seemism. The title comes from their teaching that Chris was not really a man: he was a spectral appearance. He only seemed to suffer for man's sins since we all know divine phantoms are incapable of dying" (Bruce Shelley, Church History in Plain Language, 4th ed., p. 54).

 

[John of Japan]

Mark 16:12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.

Very simple. Their eyes were miraculously hindered from recognizing Him (Luke 24:16). If you are too influenced by popular culture, you may call it a superpower--the ability to appear differently to different people.

This certainly does not mean that He was no longer human, no longer corporeal. I mean really, isn't the Flash portrayed as some kind of human?

As soon as a preterist says Jesus was not or is not now fully human, he has entered into rank heresy concerning the doctrines of Christ, Christology. We are then to separate from them (2 John 9-11).

1st John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

How is this explained?

Why explain it? John said it has not been made known. What we do know is that Jesus is fully human with a physical body of some kind. He Himself claimed that, saying that He was "flesh and bones." See my post above.

 

[John of Japan]

MY question. Was Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came in the flesh 1 John 4:2 buried, sown if you will, a natural body and was that natural body raised, resurrected if you will, a spiritual body?

Will he, and or did he if you are one of those, return is a spiritual or natural body of flesh and bone?

I believe he did not, but will, return in a spiritual body of flesh and bone.

Also I may be posting when I should be thinking and studying the matter more.

I think you've put it well. Think and study some more.

I would simply note that "spiritual" in the Bible does not mean "not physical," but means "of or pertaining to the things of the spirit."

 

[Baptist Believer]

I would simply note that "spiritual" in the Bible does not mean "not physical," but means of or pertaining to the things of the spirit.

This is a crucial point that is missed too often these days. The persistent Gnosticism of our culture casts "spiritual" and "physical" as opposites.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe the answer to the question "What kind of body does the Son currently have?" is answered by 1 Corinthians 15:39-41 and in particular verse 40.

Read down five more verses:

45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

He still has a body that was sown a weak and natural body, but was raised a spiritual body. What that means is not truly understood and it's foolish to speculate. But it is a body with which he could eat some fish.

Agree. Is His appearance ONLY as presented here?:

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And having turned I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 and in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto a son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle.
14 And his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 and his feet like unto burnished brass, as if it had been refined in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. Rev 1

Or here?:

6 And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5

...and then there's this:

8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:
9 4for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, Col 2

Has this changed?::

27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:
28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man. Acts 17

He's GOD. He can manifest in any form whatsoever.

 

[John of Japan]

This is a crucial point that is missed too often these days. The persistent Gnosticism of our culture casts "spiritual" and "physical" as opposites.

You are exactly right. It is the difference between an adjective (spiritual) and a noun (spirit).

In my experience preterists are linguistically unsophisticated, so they mix up such simple things as adjective vs. noun. Back during the "preterist donnybrook" here on the BB, asterisktom objected repeatedly to my definitions of Greek words like "appearing" and "coming," saying that I depended too much on the Greek. And right here in the OP of this thread he referred to my "lexical desperation." Actually, I'm not desperate at all. I simply believe that "words have meanings," and any attempt to escape those meanings results in obfuscation and sometimes even heresy.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are exactly right. It is the difference between an adjective (spiritual) and a noun (spirit).

In my experience preterists are linguistically unsophisticated, so they mix up such simple things as adjective vs. noun. Back during the "preterist donnybrook" here on the BB, asterisktom objected repeatedly to my definitions of Greek words like "appearing" and "coming," saying that I depended too much on the Greek. And right here in the OP of this thread he referred to my "lexical desperation." Actually, I'm not desperate at all. I simply believe that "words have meanings," and any attempt to escape those meanings results in obfuscation and sometimes even heresy.

The meanings of the Greek terms used by the Holy Spirit are what are essential, not the English meanings of the words!

 

[prophecy70]

Very simple. Their eyes were miraculously hindered from recognizing Him (Luke 24:16). If you are too influenced by popular culture, you may call it a superpower--the ability to appear differently to different people.

This certainly does not mean that He was no longer human, no longer corporeal. I mean really, isn't the Flash portrayed as some kind of human?

As soon as a preterist says Jesus was not or is not now fully human, he has entered into rank heresy concerning the doctrines of Christ, Christology. We are then to separate from them (2 John 9-11).

Why explain it? John said it has not been made known. What we do know is that Jesus is fully human with a physical body of some kind. He Himself claimed that, saying that He was "flesh and bones." See my post above.

2 Corinthians 5:16
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no more.

and that one?

In our resurrected bodies we will retain any wounds we may receive in death "like Christ" did, since our resurrected Bodies will be Like His?

Im just asking here, Im not making an argument either way.

 

[John of Japan]

2 Corinthians 5:16
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no more.

and that one?

"According to the flesh" is an idiom. Our equivalent English idiom would be "face to face." It does not mean that Jesus no longer has a physical body.

In our resurrected bodies we will retain any wounds we may receive in death "like Christ" did, since our resurrected Bodies will be Like His?

Im just asking here, Im not making an argument either way.

In the first place, the resurrected Christ has no wounds, but He has scars, and of course He offered to have Thomas touch them. As for our own scars, no, we will not retain them, even if suffered in death. There is no need for that, and no meaning in it. I mean really, the scars on my fingers from the push lawn mower my brother had? No eternal meaning there. I die in a car accident? No eternal meaning in my wounds.

Our bodies will be "like" His, not identical. We will not all be 33 year old Jewish men.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Let me share my belief and see if there is agreement. Before the Son of God came to earth he was a part of the Trinity and shared the same characteristics as the other two members, God the Father and God the Holy Ghost, three in One. The exact nature of the Trinity is a mystery to me. The Son was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born in a human body to the Virgin Mary. He was both fully human and fully divine, again a mystery. His human body was crucified and was buried. He arose on the third day with a transfigured body different from his previous body. This is confirmed by His ability to appear at various places at will and to walk through walls or doors. Is that the same body he has now sitting at the right hand of God the Father? I don't know. Is it the same body He will return in? Actually I'd have to say yes to both of these questions but can offer no proof.

Will we have physical bodies in Heaven of the same form that we have today? No. We will have transfigured bodies having been raised up in the same way as Jesus was. 1 COR 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
What will be the age represented by this new body? A youthful 21 or a mature 55? I don't know. That in my mind addresses the statement that we will have all the scars and wounds we have suffered. Suffered at what point in our life? We will be like the risen Lord both in the immortal, transformed nature of our new bodies and in our understanding of Him. 1 COR 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. I love this verse because it gives me a feeling of the mystery which surrounds this whole topic.

All I can say is Hallelujah to the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings. Debating theology is interesting but this feeling of JOY about what we have been given is priceless.

 

[evangelist6589]

And here is an example of why things stay so heated around here.

They stay heated because of people like you that criticize too often.

 

[Covenanter]

A search for "physical" found in the NIV -
Col. 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behaviour. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation – 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

We would all agree with that passage, but does it require Jesus to have a physical body in heaven, & to come again in that physical body? Certainly Jesus in his resurrection glory combines perfect deity & perfect humanity in one divine being, but does humanity require a physical body?

My next post will discuss the implications of Habakkuk 3, Q.V.

.......
Now we come down finally to the pressing question. Do you believe that the resurrected Jesus now has a physical body? A simple yes or no will suffice.

If a simple "yes" or "no" would suffice, we would not be having these lengthy discussions.

The questions is - "can Jesus come before his final coming for resurrection & judgment without violating his hypostatic union."
The answer to that is a resounding YES."

I hope you've all read Habakkuk, particularly Hab. 3. Is it prophecy or history? Note -

3 God came from Teman,
The Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah
His glory covered the heavens,
And the earth was full of His praise.​

Most of the song is in the past tense & the references throughout are to the Exodus journey, which Moses reminds the Israelites in Deut. 33:

1 Now this is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said:
“The LORD came from Sinai,
And dawned on them from Seir;
He shone forth from Mount Paran,
And He came with ten thousands of saints;
From His right hand
Came a fiery law for them.
3 Yes, He loves the people;
All His saints are in Your hand;
They sit down at Your feet;
Everyone receives Your words.
​

Moses - the LORD came ... Habakkuk - God came

Did the LORD God come spiritually or physically?

Habakkuk is contemplating the Babylonian invasion & captivity. In Hab. 1 he prays that God will bring salvation & justice to the nation. God's response is that he will bring the Chaldeans, Babylonians, to punish them. HELP!

In that hopeless situation, Habakkuk is given words of eternal hope:

2:2 Then the Lord answered me and said:
“Write the vision
And make it plain on tablets,
That he may run who reads it.
3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time;
But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie.
Though it tarries, wait for it;
Because it will surely come, It will not tarry.
4 “Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.​

Given that wonderful promise, Habakkuk sings his song of praise, remembering God's past coming with his people redeemed from Egypt, & trusting God to me merciful in a time of wrath. So he prays -

3:2 O Lord, I have heard Your speech and was afraid;
O Lord, revive Your work in the midst of the years!
In the midst of the years make it known;
In wrath remember mercy.​

He knows he will suffer through the invasion yet his song concludes with a wonderful expression of confidence in God:

17 Though the fig tree may not blossom,
Nor fruit be on the vines;
Though the labor of the olive may fail,
And the fields yield no food;
Though the flock may be cut off from the fold,
And there be no herd in the stalls—
18 Yet I will rejoice in the Lord,
I will joy in the God of my salvation.
19 The Lord God is my strength;
He will make my feet like deer’s feet,
And He will make me walk on my high hills.
​

We remember God's dreadful wrath against sin & sinners suffered by the Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary. We spiritually eat his flesh & drink his blood when we sup with him.

And we remember his special promise:

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”​

And it doesn't occur to us that fulfilling that wonderful promise means that Jesus is dying at every communion service - unless, perhaps we take the RC mass literally - but that's a discussion I hope won't arise here.

One final point -

To the Chief Musician. With my stringed instruments.​

There are hymns based on verses in the chapter but AFAIK the only hymn based fully on Hab. 3 is one I have written. I'll link it in my next post.