Pope Francis rejects Viri Probati for Amazon

[Alofa Atu]

... How about St. Paul's? ...

Paul was in training as a member of the Sanhedrin. It was required to be married, as per OT. Yet, even so, the scripture doesn't say directly whether Paul was married or not married at the beginning, only that he seemed to be not married by the end, but did make some very specific statements about the requirements of Bishops/Elders and Deacons:

1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Tit_1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.​

In fact, this pattern is seen from the beginning with Adam. Adam was married, then having children, as his church. This goes for Abraham, Moses, David, etc. They were all married. Much more can be said on this, but simply consider the pattern that God gave in all of them.

Also, Paul was not a "Bishop" or "Deacon", but was a travelling Apostle. Paul also stated:

1Co_9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?​

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul was in training as a member of the Sanhedrin. It was required to be married, as per OT. Yet, even so, the scripture doesn't say directly whether Paul was married or not married at the beginning, only that he seemed to be not married by the end, but did make some very specific statements about the requirements of Bishops/Elders and Deacons:

1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Tit_1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.​

In fact, this pattern is seen from the beginning with Adam. Adam was married, then having children, as his church. This goes for Abraham, Moses, David, etc. They were all married. Much more can be said on this, but simply consider the pattern that God gave in all of them.

Also, Paul was not a "Bishop" or "Deacon", but was a travelling Apostle. Paul also stated:

1Co_9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?​

Paul did not see being single and celibate as a requirement to be called as pastor!

 

[Alofa Atu]

... How about Timothy's? How about Titus'? ...

They both would fall under the regulations given by Paul previously in 1 Timothy 3 (a letter directly to Timothy) and also in Titus (as a direct letter to Titus states the same). Just because scripture does not name a wife, nor directly say that they had a wife, the regulation was previously given that they ought so have wives, ruling well their own household, which is the first church, or nucleus of the larger body.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Roman Catholicism, follows the pattern of the great apostate, Lucifer/satan, in that he desired to be joined unto none but himself (spiritually speaking), thus remaining single forever, even leaving his own office/estate to seek his own way (anti christos) apart from God's way, and so too then does the Papal heirarchy of 'bishops' (vicarivs christi), even going so far as to claim the same prerogative of God (belonging to God alone), namely that of infallibility (for satan refuses to admit his errors).

 

[Particular]

Yes, let us address Scripture, specifically the parts you either ignore or interpret in error.

Such as...?

Jesus did not just write a book for succeeding believers to figure out. No, he established a church here on earth that had real power to decide things, with leaders (Bishops) to do the deciding. This was accepted for millennia by virtually all those who claimed the title "Christian".

Jesus never established bishops. We see elders and deacons in scripture, not bishops. Your church structure is not Bible based.
This does not mean the structure cannot work, it just means it is not found in scripture.

If the leader of the Catholic Church wanted to institute the discipline of celibacy, he had the authority to do so.

Only in the Roman Church. Not as a biblical mandate, however.

Regarding priests, a priest is akin to your Pastor, except that he (the Priest) has been ordained by a Bishop who in turn was ordained by the Bishop before him, all the way back to the first ordinations done by the Apostles.

The Apostles appointed elders and deacons. Your assertion is false.

Your Pastor on the other hand has no connection to that line of ordination.

My Pastor and leadership has biblical offices of elders and deacons as defined by God in scripture.
You are correct, we do not follow a non-biblical government system as your church follows.

Not so, you are wrong. If you think there are contradictions in the catechism, have you looked at the Scriptures lately?

I have looked at the scriptures. I look at them daily. I see that what your church ascribes regarding communion and baptism in their catechism is contrary to what the Bible ascribes. I see that their catechism is therefore confused in understanding salvation by grace.

I can show you where Jesus says to love your enemies and then he says to get yourself a sword. You don't find a contradiction in those two teachings?

No, I don't.
The first is a response to neighbors. The second is a response to self-preservation against bandits, thieves and marauders. Context is a really important thing, Adonia.

Once again, you are wrong.

An assertion with no support by you. I take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Yeshua1]

Such as...?


Jesus never established bishops. We see elders and deacons in scripture, not bishops. Your church structure is not Bible based.
This does not mean the structure cannot work, it just means it is not found in scripture.


Only in the Roman Church. Not as a biblical mandate, however.


The Apostles appointed elders and deacons. Your assertion is false.


My Pastor and leadership has biblical offices of elders and deacons as defined by God in scripture.
You are correct, we do not follow a non-biblical government system as your church follows.


I have looked at the scriptures. I look at them daily. I see that what your church ascribes regarding communion and baptism in their catechism is contrary to what the Bible ascribes. I see that their catechism is therefore confused in understanding salvation by grace.


No, I don't.
The first is a response to neighbors. The second is a response to self-preservation against bandits, thieves and marauders. Context is a really important thing, Adonia.


An assertion with no support by you. I take it with a grain of salt.

My pastor preaches and teachings the real Apostolic doctrines, the ones in the scriptures themselves, NOT the false dogmas of Rome...

 

[utilyan]

Do we all deserve eternal hell?

You are being too selfish. we don't matter.

God gets his justice first.

If a thief steals your car and wrecks it, or a criminal paralyzes you. What is the priority? That you get your car back? walk again? or that we the criminals suffer for the sake of sadism?

God not only recompenses but gives extra in Justice.

Do we all deserve hell? GOD DECLARED HIS JUDGEMENT with JESUS CHRIST.

Do we all deserve hell is A JUDGEMENT not a DISCERNMENT. We are not allowed to Judge anyone even ourselves

And before we bother with a "punishment" of a criminal, The punishment needs to fit the crime and Victim need their justice first.

God gets his justice for his losses first, to whatever is owed to God first.

 

[utilyan]

Share a quote where I preach what you claim I preach?

Utilyan, you have openly lied.

What you claim against me may be grounds for your discipline.

Can you tell us that you are saved, utilyan? Or do you just hope that you are "being" saved?

Trust in God means not having to check, see? Did God have to send you a signed certificate?

It doesn't matter if I am saved or not. Even if I am damned I will trust God with it.

You talk a good game, but your walk could use a step or two.


You need to take your mind off selfish desires of reward and consequences, understand the big picture of what is the highest priority for God.

You don't like it when people insist what you believe? Join the club. We don't believe salvation by works.

Till then: You preach God worships SATAN. You believe God bends over and kisses the Devils toes.

Unconditional hatred of people for no reason, no condition.

 

[Oseas3]

This is not accurate. Christians don't believe those elements become God. Rather, Christians believe that by virtue of the Incarnation, God is sacramentally present in the Eucharist.

1 Cor 10:16 ---> "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"

1 Cor 11: 27-29 ---> "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."

His sacramental presence in the Eucharist means that the substance of His body, blood, should and divinity are truly present under the appearance of bread and wine.

Regarding idolatry, you have it completely reversed. It is only if the Eucharist is not the body and blood of Christ would it be the ultimate form of idolatry to have anything to do with it.

1 Cor 10:16 ---> Communion - κοινωνία (koinōnia) means: fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse, intimacy
(Source)

Trying to have fellowship, association, community, communion, participation, intercourse and intimacy with a symbol is the height of idolatry because it is a false representation of who God is. It says God is but a symbol. It says it is not His body and blood. It says God is not present amongst His people. It says "He is not here". It says God is not Immanuel. It says God is Hester Panim.

Think Incarnationally.

The true Christians, or true believers, are instructed by the Word of God, that says: 1 Cor.10:v.20-21
20 I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

You have quoted Scripture, but you are a false prophet.

Furthermore, the Apostle of the Lord, warned the believers, saying unto them: " Beloved, believe not every spirit, but TRY the spirits whether they are of God: because many FALSE PROPHETS are gone out into the world. 1John 4:v.1

What you are doing is the same Satan did with JESUS in the temptation: Matt.4:v.6 - And Satan said unto JESUS, speaking of the Scriptures : "6 Satan said unto JESUS: "If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. - Psalms 91:v.11-12

You are a STUMBLING BLOCK.

 

[Particular]

Trust in God means not having to check, see? Did God have to send you a signed certificate?

It doesn't matter if I am saved or not. Even if I am damned I will trust God with it.

You talk a good game, but your walk could use a step or two.


You need to take your mind off selfish desires of reward and consequences, understand the big picture of what is the highest priority for God.

You don't like it when people insist what you believe? Join the club. We don't believe salvation by works.

Till then: You preach God worships SATAN. You believe God bends over and kisses the Devils toes.

Unconditional hatred of people for no reason, no condition.

So, you cannot tell me you are saved? Do you have no assurance in scripture or do you just follow whatever your church tells you? Apparently, your church tells you that you can never know you are saved and you must do whatever they prescribe if you want to have a chance.
Do you realize that such a control over a person is what legalists do to their followers? Islam does it to their followers. Mormonism does it to their followers. Jehovah's Witness does it to their followers. Cults do it to their followers.

 

[Oseas3]

I like Scott Hahn's explanation that the Eucharist is a 're-presentation' of His death upon the cross for our redemption.

What Scott Hahn's says is a lie, eucharist is a representation of Devil in the cult made by demons, who made a cross to kill JESUS the Son of God.

Actually the CROSS made by Satan to kill JESUS is a TROPHY of the Devil, IS A TROPHY that the Devil carries with him as if to say: I killed the mighty son of God.

Eucharist is a ceremonial invented by the Devil to commemorate and rejoice for his greatest work, for his greatest feat, to murder JESUS on the CROSS he manufactured for this purpose.

Cross is a CURSE, wherever there is a cross, even hanging around people's necks, it means that the place or the persons under a cross, all still remain under the CURSE, like the temples of the Roman Catholic Church , everything and everyone is still UNDER THE CURSE OF THE CROSS made by the Devil. They are still CURSED by JESUS and condemned to eternal perdition. Revelation 19:v.19-21

 

[Adonia]

What Scott Hahn's says is a lie, eucharist is a representation of Devil in the cult made by demons, who made a cross to kill JESUS the Son of God.

Actually the CROSS made by Satan to kill JESUS is a TROPHY of the Devil, IS A TROPHY that the Devil carries with him as if to say: I killed the mighty son of God.

Eucharist is a ceremonial invented by the Devil to commemorate and rejoice for his greatest work, for his greatest feat, to murder JESUS on the CROSS he manufactured for this purpose.

Cross is a CURSE, wherever there is a cross, even hanging around people's necks, it means that the place or the persons under a cross, all still remain under the CURSE, like the temples of the Roman Catholic Church , everything and everyone is still UNDER THE CURSE OF THE CROSS made by the Devil. They are still CURSED by JESUS and condemned to eternal perdition. Revelation 19:v.19-21

You have just blasphemed the Holy Spirit. It is all over for you at this point as there is no forgiveness for this particular sin. I feel sad for you, very sad - an eternity away from God and being with the evil one will not be a good experience.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are being too selfish. we don't matter.

God gets his justice first.

If a thief steals your car and wrecks it, or a criminal paralyzes you. What is the priority? That you get your car back? walk again? or that we the criminals suffer for the sake of sadism?

God not only recompenses but gives extra in Justice.

Do we all deserve hell? GOD DECLARED HIS JUDGEMENT with JESUS CHRIST.

Do we all deserve hell is A JUDGEMENT not a DISCERNMENT. We are not allowed to Judge anyone even ourselves

And before we bother with a "punishment" of a criminal, The punishment needs to fit the crime and Victim need their justice first.

God gets his justice for his losses first, to whatever is owed to God first.

You and I deserved to go to hell!

 

[Oseas3]

You have just blasphemed the Holy Spirit. It is all over for you at this point as there is no forgiveness for this particular sin. I feel sad for you, very sad - an eternity away from God and being with the evil one will not be a good experience.

You should think and worry on you and all peoples like you, as a followers of the satanic church guided by the blasphemy Beast of sea, the Pope, the Papacy, a MONSTER of 7 heads, and 10 horns, who has a NAME of blasphemy, that is Vicarius Filii Dei, what is a LIE, it is a FAKE, the Pope is a LIAR, in TRUTH, before the Most High and Almighty God, the Pope is a Vicarius Filii Diaboli, and will be cast down into the lake of FIRE, the hell's FIRE, and all his followers together with him. Revelation 19:v.19-20

JESUS has already CURSED by His own MOUTH and by written all people that are at his left hand, and the Papacy, and the Roman Catholic Church with all his devilish and monstruous structures, and all his followers, ALL ARE CURSED, YES, THEY ALL ARE CURSED, and destined to the hell's fire.

The MONSTRUOUS structures SATAN has built and established in whole Earth through the Papacy, in Europe, and Asia, and Africa, and Oceania(Australia), and North America, and Central America, and South America, since the beginning of the Church of the Lord, ALL ARE CURSED BY JESUS. By the way, JESUS is sit on His Throne to Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ.

YEAH, all the MONSTRUOUS structures that SATAN has built and established in whole Earth through the Papacy, in these 7 REGIONS of the Planet, as Europe, and Asia, and Africa, and Oceania(Australia), and North America, and Central America, and South America,and it since the beginning of the Church of the Lord, YEAH, ALL THE PAPACY's MONSTRUOUS STRUCTURES ARE CURSED BY JESUS, and condemned to ETERNAL perdition into the hell's FIRE.

 

[Oseas3]

REVELATION 13

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a Beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the NAME of blasphemy.

2 And the Beast which I saw... the Dragon gave him his Power, and his Seat, and great Authority.

3 And I saw one of his (7) heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the Beast.

4 And they (the followers of the Beast of sea-the Papacy) worshipped the Dragon which gave power unto the Beast: and they worshipped the Beast, saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make War with him?

Who is able to make War with the Beast of sea? The answer is in Revelation 19:v.11

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1:30 AM Pacific.

 

[Particular]

You and I deserved to go to hell!

Indeed, there is none who are righteous, not even one.

 

[utilyan]

You and I deserved to go to hell!

I don't make judgement calls. It would be a sin.

Hebrews 13
1Let love of the brethren continue. 2Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

1 Corinthians 4

3But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. 5Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

 

[utilyan]

So, you cannot tell me you are saved? Do you have no assurance in scripture or do you just follow whatever your church tells you? Apparently, your church tells you that you can never know you are saved and you must do whatever they prescribe if you want to have a chance.
Do you realize that such a control over a person is what legalists do to their followers? Islam does it to their followers. Mormonism does it to their followers. Jehovah's Witness does it to their followers. Cults do it to their followers.

Its about the attitude not the number of works.

1 Corinthians 13

3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

I'm not looking for assurance against God, God is my assurance itself. Don't need leverage over God.

Its a lack of faith to have to seek it.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1:30 AM Pacific.

this thread is closed.