Pope Pius XII "creates" doctrine out of THIN AIR!

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Helen:
Thessalonian, the 'trinity' that Chrissy mentioned is the false trinity which came down into the RC church from mystery Babylon. It is not the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

"False trinity" which came down in the RC church?

Not the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?

Please, enlighten us.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Helen:
Thessalonian, the 'trinity' that Chrissy mentioned is the false trinity which came down into the RC church from mystery Babylon. It is not the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Helen,

You will have to forgive me for being a bit miffed here. Are you baptist or some non-denominational denominatoin? You see my understanding is that the Trinitarian theology is one area that these groups agree with Catholicism on. Now I am a bit skeptical of your attempt to maintain fellowship with Criss and Angelmom and here is why. The SDA's I know that have denied the Trinity doctrine have proposed a non-eternal Jesus who was begotten at a certain time by misinterpruting the verse that says "you are my son, this day I have begotten you". The Christian/Trinitarian view of this verse is that Christ is eternally begotten of the Father. Further they have adhered to the long since condemned doctrine of Subordiantionalism which has Jesus as a sort of a lesser God. This view of God also forces them in to Tritheism. So what you have is a who can full of heresies that are not Christian and have long since been condemned. Now I don't know if these two SDA ladies are in this category but that is what I am trying to find out so perhaps you could let go of your biases for a bit and admit that I have a legitimate questoin, and so stop picking sides until you know who you are siding with.

Blessings dear.

[ February 23, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Where is this statement in the Bible?

"God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit"

Seriously. Where is it?

God Bless

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Where is this statement in the Bible?

"God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit"

Seriously. Where is it?

God Bless

So you are denying the Trinity? One God in three Persons, coequal, coeternal?

 

[thessalonian]

"anyway, I've had it with this weird crew...(but I guess thats what you were hoping for). I've just got better things to do with my time than have to listen to this same garbage over and over again. "

Crissy,

I've enjoyed having you on the board, even if you have not answered any of the questions I have posed to you. I will keep you in my prayres. Blessings.

 

[thessalonian]

Rufus,

Just bringing this forward so you don't miss it, until you get a chance to respond. Blessings.

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Hey Ruf,

Just bringing this forward as it seems to be getting buried again. I will keep doint it until you acknowledge your error that Pius XII created the Assumption doctrine. i.e. this thread is dead.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by rufus:
Would everyone go back to my first post, please?

My point is that the Pope "created" the doctrine of the "Assumption of Mary" out of thin air. I have quoted from the historical documents to demonstrate it. And I could quote many, many more to show the actual process by which this doctrine was created.

CAN WE NOT CONCENTRATE ON THE <<<<<POPE>>>>> CREATING DOCTRINE OUT OF THIN AIR????

Catholic friends, check your own historical documents, unless you are AFRAID of the TRUTH!

rufus
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rufus,

Perhaps with all the digressing you missed my post. Quite clearly the doctrine of the assumption existed long before Pope Pius XII's declaration. Martin Luther threw out the feast of the assumption in his Church in the 16th century (I even believe that this fact was in some text you copied from a website in a reply you made to one of my posts on the St. Bernard issue, so I am surprized that you raised this issue) so we know that it existed before then. The feast of the assumption was celebrated throughout the Church, east and west, as early as the 7th century. I am sure there were dioceses that celebrated it much earlier than that. So Pius XIi could not possibly have created it out of thin air. Now perhaps you will be a good chap and admit your error. Then this thread is pretty much dead or can head in whatever direction it wants. Perhaps you can do some real research on the issue and make accusations about who really did start it. Who knows. But the issue you have raised is dead.

Blessings though.

PS. One mistake Protestants continuously make is that dogmatic statements of the Church are NEVER the creation of a doctrine. Rather they are the affirmation of a doctrine that has long been held and comes under specific attack in parts of the Church. Just for your edification.

 

[Claudia]

THE EUCHARIST
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/mass.htm

you can click on the address above

(just to give the Catholics one last thing to whine about)

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Claudia:
THE EUCHARIST
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/mass.htm

you can click on the address above

(just to give the Catholics one last thing to whine about)

You keep saying, "bye", but that anti-Catholic thing is sort of an addiction isn't it?

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Where is this statement in the Bible?

"God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit"

Seriously. Where is it?

God Bless

So you are denying the Trinity? One God in three Persons, coequal, coeternal? </font>[/QUOTE]So are you refusing to answer the question?

Don't put words in my mouth thess, I didn't say anthing of the sort!

God Bless

 

[Claudia]

and here is Michael S. 's other site with an easier to remember address... its his home page... so that you could read any of his articles that you would like to read.

http://biblelight.net/

 

[GraceSaves]

Mom,

Since I'm not in that current discussion, I will ask:

Do you believe in a Triune God, three persons but one God, coequal and coeternal?

I look forward to your response.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
Thessalonian, the 'trinity' that Chrissy mentioned is the false trinity which came down into the RC church from mystery Babylon. It is not the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

"False trinity" which came down in the RC church?

Not the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?

Please, enlighten us. </font>[/QUOTE]Despite lip service being given to the presence of the Holy Spirit, the actual Catholic Trinity is composed of a Father, a Mother (Mary), and the Son. Mary has been given by the RC church the basic function of the Holy Spirit. It is she the Catholics ask to pray for them and intercede for them, whereas in Biblical Christianity, that is the function of the Holy Spirit. The bodily assumption of Mary is simply a part of that which had to be manufactured 'out of thin air' in order to maintain her position in the actual RC theology.

By the way, although Jesus is eternal with the Father, Psalm 2 makes it very clear that there was a point in time when their relationship changed.

As far as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is concerned, this is something I wrote some time ago for a young lady starting to study with the Jehovah's Witnesses, who was asking questions. Please note that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are all identified with each other in a sense of exactness, while still being separate from each other:

The concept of the Trinity is present from the opening verse of the Bible, actually. The word "God" in Genesis 1:1 is "elohim." This is not a simple plural of the word 'god.' The plural of that word, which means 'two,' is "eloh." "Elohim" means "three or more."

In Deuteronomy 6:4, we have the resounding, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one!"

"God" is, there again, "Elohim." What is also interesting is that the last word of that, the word "one" is the word "echad." "Echad" means unity in plurality. It is the same word used regarding marriage in Genesis. 2:24, when a man is to leave his mother and father and become one with his wife. The word which is NOT used there to mean "one" is "yachid." "Yachid" means a unique singularity.

Now go to Isaiah 9 -- the famous Christmas verse:

"For unto us a child is born
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace."

Now go to Isaiah 44:6 --

"This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD
Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
Apart from me there is no God."

Please cross reference this with Jesus' words to John in Revelation 1:17-18 -- "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One. I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever."

Check the Gospel of John, opening sentences, opening chapter:

"In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [Remember Genesis 1:1 -- "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.:] .... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Please note also that the absolutely correct translation of the Hebrew is "...and God was the Word," - I urge you to look it up.

John 1 is one of the rather famous areas the JW's have mistranslated, against all established Greek grammar...

And remember Jesus words' at the end of Matthew: "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit...." and, again, Jesus' words defining eternal life in John 17:3 clearly equate Him with the Father.

And so, although we may not understand the Trinity with our human minds very well, the doctrine of the Trinity is present in the Bible from the first. Jesus is God Himself in the flesh, and it was because this was His very claim that the Pharisees were so outraged and attempted several times to stone Him. There are two Greek words which mean "I am." The first is "ego" which means "I am " with the emphasis on the "I". The second is "eimi", which also means "I am" with the emphasis on the "am." John records three times when Jesus used the double phrase (which is very poor Greek grammar, as the two words are never used together!) "Ego eimi", meaning "I am I AM" or "I am [the] I AM:" when He identified Himself to the woman at the well in John 4:26, in John 8:24, when responding to the Pharisaical challenge, and when He identified Himself to the Pharisees in John 8:58 (at which time the Pharisees picked up rocks to stone Him for the blasphemy of using God's name -- they thought in vain). In John 10:31-33, we see the incident where the Pharisees again want to stone him and Jesus asks them why:

"I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

So what the Jehovah's Witnesses and the encyclopedias do not understand today, the Pharisees understood quite clearly: Jesus claimed to be God.

In John 14-17 we have the famous last discourse of our Lord. In John 14:16, Jesus promises "another" counselor to be with the disciples forever. He identifies this Counselor as the Holy Spirit. The interesting thing here is the word He chose for "another." Again, there are two Greek words for Him to choose from. One is "allos", meaning "exactly alike in every detail." The other is "heteros" meaning "a different other". The first -- allos -- would be used if you broke a vase at someone's house and you promised to buy the owner another vase exactly like the first as a replacement. The second -- heteros -- would be used if you had a wonderful vacation with your family and you promised yourselves another vacation together next year. When Jesus referred to "another" Counselor, the word He used was "allos." He was one Counselor, but He would send "another" -- allos -- one just like Him, for the disciples. This is re-affirmed when Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "the Spirit of Truth" in John 16:13. Jesus had identified Himself as "the truth" in John 14:6. The Spirit is also identified as being present in Genesis 1:2 -- right there in the beginning.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Grant,

Why would you even ask me that?

I asked a simple question.

Where is this phrase in the Bible:

"God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit"

Where is it?

God Bless

 

[Helen]

Please read my post above, 3AngelsMom. I think when you study the Bible you will find that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; thus we have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

 

[GraceSaves]

Mom,

Why can you not simply say 'yes'? I will assume that your refusing to answer the question means you do not believe in it, or are to cowardly to profess it. Why else would you deprive us of telling us if you believe in the Triune God?

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Helen,

I usually say this prayer a few times a week. Are you telling me that when I say it, I am merely paying lip service?

Come Holy Spirit,
fill my heart with Your holy gifts.

Let my weakness be penetrated with Your strength
this very day that I may fulfill all the duties of my
state conscientiously, that I may do what is right
and just.

Let my charity be such as to offend no one, and hurt
no one's feelings; so generous as to pardon
sincerely any wrong done to me.

Assist me, O Holy Spirit,
in all my tirals of life, enlighten me in my
ignorance, advise me in my doubts, strengthen me
in my weakness, help me in all my needs, protect
me in temptations and console me in afflictions.

Graciously hear me, O Holy Spirit,
and pour Your light into my heart, my soul, and
my mind.

Assist me to live a holy life and to grow in goodness
and grace. Amen.

Please do explain this away.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Claudia]

Hey Grace Saves,

I just found this page on the website I've been putting on here:

http://biblelight.net/burn-heretics.htm

It talks about the EWTN website... hey! thats the same website I clicked on when I looked at YOUR profile! Is that why you had made such a huge deal out of me posting that website?

...I guess that explains things.

(dont reply, I wont answer you back, I just wanted to put this on here because it seemed interesting LOL, I had just clicked on your profile this morning and saw the EWTN website you either own or at least advocate.)

Hey gee, my silly poem that I had found on some site and posted here about that catholic priest pales in comparison to you wanting to burn "heretics" in actual real life, at the stake! doesnt it?

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

 

[GraceSaves]

Helen,

By the way, could you please show me a single Catholic document in which Mary is endorsed as God, or as part of the Godhead? Or how about one that even says she is not creature. I'm really antsy to see this one.

And if it is never said or written by the Church, your claims are invalid, and are your own opinion. They are not fact, and they are not provable. They are your (and others) work in which you take bits and pieces from different sources and create something entirely new (this false trinity of yours).

If we don't teach it, then we don't believe it. And you can't prove it.

Happy hunting.

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Claudia:
It talks about the EWTN website... hey! thats the same website I clicked on when I looked at YOUR profile! Is that why you had made such a huge deal out of me posting that website?

...I guess that explains things.

Yes. You've discovered it. I'm in cahoots with EWTN to take over the world. And because I like EWTN, this means that I am on a mission to persecute you for all eternity.

Originally posted by Claudia:
(dont reply, I wont answer you back, I just wanted to put this on here because it seemed interesting LOL, I had just clicked on your profile this morning and saw the EWTN website you either own or at least advocate.)

Of course you won't reply. Hit and runs are much easier.

By the way, I do advocate the site, and enjoy visiting the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament in Hanceville, AL, where Mother Angelica (who started EWTN)'s monestary is located.

Originally posted by Claudia:
Hey gee, my silly poem that I had found on some site and posted here about that catholic priest pales in comparison to you wanting to burn "heretics" in actual real life, at the stake! doesnt it?

Yes, I'm so glad you found that quote of me personally (since you addressed that last sentence to me personally) wishing to burn people at the stake. Congratulations; I had tried to hide it so well, too.

This is not the first time I've run across this (I do get around, you know), and it's quite clear that Dr. Carroll does not wish to set people on fire. His wording was very poor and ill-explained. But, considering the Catholic Church is a staunch opponent of the death penalty, if he DID literally mean what he said, he would not be in line with Church teaching.

Further, he never said he supported it, or that the Church did. He stated his opinion on the matter, and said that he does not endore it BECAUSE such-and-such. He never said that he WOULD ENDORSE IT. That part is always added by the anti-Catholic website, in which words are put into his mouth that he never spoke.

Originally posted by Claudia:
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Yes, you're a real jokester. I'm aware of that now. It's funny, just not funny "ha ha."

God bless,

Grant

 

[thessalonian]

Helen,

"Despite lip service being given to the presence of the Holy Spirit, the actual Catholic Trinity is composed of a Father, a Mother (Mary), and the Son. Mary has been given by the RC church the basic function of the Holy Spirit."

You are a liar.