Pope Sanctions Gay Clergy!

[BobRyan]

The clergy take a VOW of celibacy

Indeed - unwittingly as the news reports appear to confirm.

The whole point of the discussion is to deal with the fact that they do Not "just so happen to take a vow" but rather they are told that this is the only way one can serve as a pastor/priest in their church.

The idea promoted here is that they not be subjected to such unbiblical injunctions - as obviously Peter and Paul and the Apostles were not themselves subjected to such non-biblical demands.

To break the vow is a thing I woupd not want to deal with at Judgement Day!

Yes - that is the barrel the RCC tries to hold over them. The result is the behind the scenes sin - by both priests and nuns - discovered only decades later in some cases and a church administration bent on covering it up where possible by shifting violators from parish to parish.

Sow to the wind - reap the whirlwind.

Why not go easy on the priests and allow them to become priests without taking any such vow.

BTW - it is interesting that the RCC teaches that a priest can absolve someone from sin - presumably they believe that a priest can absolve someone from a vow. For example if a non-priest takes upon himself a vow of celebacy - not informing anyone in the church -- and then ten years later gets married - I believe the RCC teaches that his priest can "Absolve him" from his sin of breaking his own private vow.

Interesting then how they treat this subject given their own view of it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

We're all born in sin. A homosexual is no different in that respect. We all have tendencies to sin - how many times have you felt anger in your heart to another person?

What are you trying to justify? When I became saved I put anger away. It has been years since I have "lost my temper" which I did on a regular basis before I was saved. I had a real problem with anger before I was saved. The Lord dealt with me and and has taken that away.
If there is no change in a person's life after they are saved, then are they really saved? When the Holy Spirit comes and resides within He will effect a change in that person. One is not born a homosexual. Like anger it is an act; an act of sin. When one becomes a Christians, that is becomes saved, he puts it away. He stops doing it. If he continues that lifestyle, then he is not a Christian.

If you read the entire passage (from verse 18 to the end of the chapter), you will get a better sense than these few verses give of the downward spiral of man's rebellion.

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Keep reading. God gave them up. God gave them over.
Homosexuality is a direct rebellion against God, more so than anger, lying or other sins. It starts with changing the truth about God into a lie, and then worshiping the creature more than the Creator.
One cannot be gay and a Christian at the same time. They have rejected God, the Creator.

 

[Walter]

Indeed - unwittingly as the news reports appear to confirm.

The whole point of the discussion is to deal with the fact that they do Not "just so happen to take a vow" but rather they are told that this is the only way one can serve as a pastor/priest in their church.

The idea promoted here is that they not be subjected to such unbiblical injunctions - as obviously Peter and Paul and the Apostles were not themselves subjected to such non-biblical demands.



Yes - that is the barrel the RCC tries to hold over them. The result is the behind the scenes sin - by both priests and nuns - discovered only decades later in some cases and a church administration bent on covering it up where possible by shifting violators from parish to parish.

Sow to the wind - reap the whirlwind.

Why not go easy on the priests and allow them to become priests without taking any such vow.

BTW - it is interesting that the RCC teaches that a priest can absolve someone from sin - presumably they believe that a priest can absolve someone from a vow. For example if a non-priest takes upon himself a vow of celebacy - not informing anyone in the church -- and then ten years later gets married - I believe the RCC teaches that his priest can "Absolve him" from his sin of breaking his own private vow.

Interesting then how they treat this subject given their own view of it.

in Christ,

Bob

They can and do. They can become priests in the Eastern Rite Churches of the Holy Catholic Church and be married. Not every Catholic priest is a priest in the Latin Rite.

 

[Matt Black]

What are you trying to justify? When I became saved I put anger away. It has been years since I have "lost my temper" which I did on a regular basis before I was saved. I had a real problem with anger before I was saved. The Lord dealt with me and and has taken that away.

Wow, just wow. So you never sin any more? Since we're on Romans, you're clearly better than St Paul (Rom. 7:14-25), not to mention me.

If there is no change in a person's life after they are saved, then are they really saved?

Spoken like a Catholic...faith without works and all that....

When the Holy Spirit comes and resides within He will effect a change in that person. One is not born a homosexual. Like anger it is an act; an act of sin. When one becomes a Christians, that is becomes saved, he puts it away. He stops doing it. If he continues that lifestyle, then he is not a Christian.

I think again you're falling into the trap of conflating the act with the orientation

 

[DHK]

I think again you're falling into the trap of conflating the act with the orientation

When speaking of homosexuality there is no such thing as "orientation."
That is the liberal lie that you have swallowed hook, line and sinker.
It is the gay "excuse" that they use to justify their sinful acts.

Is one orientated or wired for murder? Do you believe that too?
Is one oriented or wired for bestiality? Why not? That is just one step further than homosexuality. Read Romans one. After giving their bodies to the same sex they go on to animals.

ISBE says:

Bestiality.
According to Webster: "unnatural connection with a beast." This form of vice was treated by the Mosaic law as something exceedingly loathsome and abhorrent, calling for extreme language in its description and rigorous measures in its punishment. Both the beast and the guilty human were to be put to death (Ex 22:19; Le 18:23; 20:15-16; De 27:21), in order, as the Talmud says, to obliterate all memory of the crime.

Romans says:
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

--They did those things which were against the natural use of the body.

Are they just oriented that way; born that way?

Are you really serious about this?

 

[BobRyan]

They can and do. They can become priests in the Eastern Rite Churches of the Holy Catholic Church and be married. Not every Catholic priest is a priest in the Latin Rite.

Agreed.

And so it is "instructive" that we do not get news reports about Eastern Orthodox priests seeking out and abusing young boys the way you hear about the cases with the RCC.

The RCC is creating its own problem - it need not do it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Melanie]

Indeed - unwittingly as the news reports appear to confirm.....re taking a vow of celibacy??????? What! This is simply ridiculous to suggest, they are not children, the whole lengthy process of formation is to reflect on all aspects of their desire to commit themselves to God.

Australia has just been to the voting and a new government elected......Mr Abott the new Prime Minister attended seminary for 3 years before leaving. Many men go to seminaries in order to discern a relligious calling, and many, many leave before ordination into the priesthood. Priestly training is for 7 years, you cannot possibly get that far along and NOT know about the vows.

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed - unwittingly as the news reports appear to confirm.....re taking a vow of celibacy??????? ...Priestly training is for 7 years, you cannot possibly get that far along and NOT know about the vows.

Unwittingly as in not realizing the full extent of how much of a mistake it is from the very start to conflict with the Bible example. A mistake as can be seen by news reports of what is happening among RCC priests - and the contrasting relative absence of it as found among Eastern Orthodox priests.

We are just stating the obvious on this one - and suggesting that by following the Bible example instead of made-up-traditions they would not have to be tormenting their priests with this dilemma.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Walter]

Unwittingly as in not realizing the full extent of how much of a mistake it is from the very start to conflict with the Bible example. A mistake as can be seen by news reports of what is happening among RCC priests - and the contrasting relative absence of it as found among Eastern Orthodox priests.

We are just stating the obvious on this one - and suggesting that by following the Bible example instead of made-up-traditions they would not have to be tormenting their priests with this dilemma.

in Christ,

Bob

Of course there are many more articles about sex abuse in the Catholic Church than there are of other churches. The Church is over a billion strong which dwarfs the rest of you. DHK is quick to post ANYTHING he finds that relates to Catholic sex abuse-ignoring anything Baptists might be doing.
Catholic clergy aren’t more likely to abuse children than other clergy or men in general. According to the best available data (which is pretty good, mostly coming from a comprehensive report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2004, as well as several other studies), 4 percent of Catholic priests in the USA sexually victimized minors during the past half century. No evidence has been published that states that this number is higher than clergy from other religious traditions. The 4 percent figure is lower than school teachers (at 5 percent) during the same time frame and perhaps as much as half of the numbers of the general population of men.

 

[Matt Black]

When speaking of homosexuality there is no such thing as "orientation."
That is the liberal lie that you have swallowed hook, line and sinker.
It is the gay "excuse" that they use to justify their sinful acts.

Is one orientated or wired for murder? Do you believe that too?
Is one oriented or wired for bestiality? Why not? That is just one step further than homosexuality. Read Romans one. After giving their bodies to the same sex they go on to animals.

ISBE says:

Romans says:
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

--They did those things which were against the natural use of the body.

Are they just oriented that way; born that way?

Are you really serious about this?

A tendency does not mean that one is born that way necessarily, although there is evidence to suggest that, for example, alcoholism has a genetic component re predisposition. That's a rather good parallel in fact: is a recovering alcoholic, who has repented and put his trust and faith in Jesus and has been 'dry' ever since, yet has the strong urge to drink, a sinner, in your book?

 

[Walter]

A tendency does not mean that one is born that way necessarily, although there is evidence to suggest that, for example, alcoholism has a genetic component re predisposition. That's a rather good parallel in fact: is a recovering alcoholic, who has repented and put his trust and faith in Jesus and has been 'dry' ever since, yet has the strong urge to drink, a sinner, in your book?[/QUOTE]

Very good point, Matt. Using DHK's logic, if you are an alcoholic, you are a drunk and you consume alcohol. I have been in recovery from alcohol for years and I am a 'recovering alcoholic'. Not very often anymore, but sometimes I have a strong desire to drink, if I take a drink I know beyond any doubt that I will awaken the monster. My next door neighbor, a Baptist btw, has never had a homosexual experience. HOWEVER, he says that IF he were to have sex he would have it with another man. His sexual desires are for people of the same-sex, so he has chosen to remain chaste. He claims to be a homosexual. Is he wrong? I KNOW I am an alcoholic, I just choose not to drink today. Am I wrong to say I am an alcoholic?

 

[Matt Black]

You're not wrong to say you're an alcoholic (although perhaps one should qualify it with a 'recovering' prefix :smilewinkgrin. You and others would be very wrong however to label you a 'sinner' in that regard or imply that somehow your salvation is imperilled because you have that particular medical condition. I am the same with cigarettes BTW - most of the time it doesn't bother me and I haven't had a puff for over 12 years, but I know that if I do then I'll fall off the wagon.

 

[DHK]

A tendency does not mean that one is born that way necessarily, although there is evidence to suggest that, for example, alcoholism has a genetic component re predisposition. That's a rather good parallel in fact: is a recovering alcoholic, who has repented and put his trust and faith in Jesus and has been 'dry' ever since, yet has the strong urge to drink, a sinner, in your book?

There are all kinds of "quack" research done. Research has been done to show how smoking cigarettes can be good for your health. Of course it was sponsored by the tobacco companies.
The only infants born with a tendency to alcoholism are those that were born "fetal alcohol syndrome," and others born with a dependency on drugs, both because their mothers abused themselves during their pregnancies with alcohol and drugs. Otherwise no one is born with a predisposition to alcohol. That would never hold for a defense in a court of law. "I was born that way."

An alcoholic who has repented is no longer an alcoholic.
A homosexual who has repented of that lifestyle is no longer a homosexual.

Neither one are "born that way."
They are sinful choices that they make in life that need to be repented of.

 

[Walter]

There are all kinds of "quack" research done. Research has been done to show how smoking cigarettes can be good for your health. Of course it was sponsored by the tobacco companies.
The only infants born with a tendency to alcoholism are those that were born "fetal alcohol syndrome," and others born with a dependency on drugs, both because their mothers abused themselves during their pregnancies with alcohol and drugs. Otherwise no one is born with a predisposition to alcohol. That would never hold for a defense in a court of law. "I was born that way."

An alcoholic who has repented is no longer an alcoholic.
A homosexual who has repented of that lifestyle is no longer a homosexual.

Neither one are "born that way."
They are sinful choices that they make in life that need to be repented of.

DHK, you have no idea what you are talking about.

FACT: Children of alcoholics are four times more likely than other children to become alcoholics. My father was an alcoholic and his father (which he never knew because he died right after he was born) was an alcoholic.

FACT: If an alcoholic in recovery takes a drink after years of sobriety that alcoholics drinks as if he never stopped. In FACT, that alcoholic drinks as if the alcoholism has progressed and in many cases if the alcoholic was in the first stage of alcoholism when he/she stopped drinking, when the relapse occurs years later they often find themselves in the final stages of alcoholism. Now how is that if they are no longer alcoholics? Progression in the disease of alcoholism is a FACT. It is hardly 'quack research'. Study after study have come to the same conclusion.

Please don't try to tell me about people who repent & stop drinking not being alcoholics anymore. That is a LIE from hell and may give people the idea they might be able to drink 'socially' again. I've worked in the field for years and seen case after case of people who have tried to take the: 'I once had a problem with alcohol but the Lord delivered me & now can drink responsibly' position. Your posting such nonsense could very well end up leading someone to their death.

 

[Walter]

Just a personal experience to share with you and I will not continue to comment of alcoholism or such addictions unless you wish.

I had six years of sobriety back in the 80's when some 'study' concluded that some 'former' alcoholics were able to return to social drinking after a time of sustained recovery. Well, I figured I was probably one of those who could do that. With the first beer I drank I craved a second, third, fourth, etc. I went on a year of relapse in which my alcoholism progressed to the point of being out of work and almost out of a marriage. God brought me out of that pit of addiction and put my feet back on solid ground, praise God! But, I would never conclude that I am no longer an alcoholic. As Matt said, I am one in recovery.

 

[DHK]

DHK, you have no idea what you are talking about.

FACT: Children of alcoholics are four times more likely than other children to become alcoholics. My father was an alcoholic and his father (which he never knew because he died right after he was born) was an alcoholic.

Yes, I realize that. Environment plays a role in any family. That is due to one's environment, not to one's genetic make-up. The "four times more likely" factor has nothing to do with DNA, but the "gay crowd" would have us to believe that "they are born that way," which is nonsense.

FACT: If an alcoholic in recovery takes a drink after years of sobriety that alcoholics drinks as if he never stopped. In FACT, that alcoholic drinks as if the alcoholism has progressed and in many cases if the alcoholic was in the first stage of alcoholism when he/she stopped drinking, when the relapse occurs years later they often find themselves in the final stages of alcoholism. Now how is that if they are no longer alcoholics? Progression in the disease of alcoholism is a FACT. It is hardly 'quack research'. Study after study have come to the same conclusion.

I agree with you. I have worked in a program called "Reformer's Unanimous." I know about addictions. I know how easy it is to go back. The Bible says "a just man falls seven times and rises again." If he is truly saved he gets up, dusts himself off, gets back on the road to recovery again. Peter didn't deny the Lord just one time. He denied him three times.
Alcoholism does affect the brain. It kills brain cells.
Homosexuality is simply perverted immoral rebellion against God. The person retains their intelligence but stands in direct rebellion against God (and in danger of some horrible STD).
Neither of these are passed on through the DNA. It is rebellion.

Please don't try to tell me about people who repent & stop drinking not being alcoholics anymore. That is a LIE from hell and may give people the idea they might be able to drink 'socially' again.

I am totally against social drinking; drinking of any kind. I believe that Jesus created unfermented wine or grape juice for some of the very reasons you just presented.
I can liken alcoholics to those who smoked heavily and then quit. My father was such a person who had smoked heavily for 30 years. When my grandfather died, it was because of lung cancer directly attributed to smoking. When he realized that and the damage that smoking was causing to his own health he made a resolution never to smoke another cigarette. Despite the many urgings, temptations, etc., he never did. That was in an era before there was any kind of medical help like "the patch" or other aids.

I've worked in the field for years and seen case after case of people who have tried to take the: 'I once had a problem with alcohol but the Lord delivered me & now can drink responsibly' position. Your posting such nonsense could very well end up leading someone to their death.

I don't think I have ever posted anything that resembled that. I don't agree with it. I don't advocate it.
Neither would I advocate the application in the topic at hand: "responsible sex for the homosexual." NOT!!!
Where did I say anything remotely close to what you are suggesting?

 

[Walter]

Post #173 "An alcoholic who has repented is no longer an alcoholic."

The expression I use is: "Once a pickle never a cucumber again'.

I'm glad you don't advocate drinking of any kind, I think alcohol is one of the most dangerous drugs in the world. I do believe there is a genetic link and that gene will some day be isolated. Here is an interesting link by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism:
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-he...-use-disorders/genetics-alcohol-use-disorders

I don't know if there will ever be a 'gay gene' found. If there is, it will be amusing to watch how 'pro-life' the gay community becomes.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Post #173 "An alcoholic who has repented is no longer an alcoholic."

The expression I use is: "Once a pickle never a cucumber again'.

I'm glad you don't advocate drinking of any kind, I think alcohol is one of the most dangerous drugs in the world. I do believe there is a genetic link and that gene will some day be isolated. Here is an interesting link by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism:
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-he...-use-disorders/genetics-alcohol-use-disorders

I don't know if there will ever be a 'gay gene' found. If there is, it will be amusing to watch how 'pro-life' the gay community becomes.

Did you ever see the Movie "The Producers" Walter? The parody of a flaming Homosexual in it is hilarious.....BTW the whole movie (the original with Zero Mostel is the best comic movie in my book)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6a1giOZFaQ

 

[DHK]

Post #173 "An alcoholic who has repented is no longer an alcoholic."

I think it is a matter of semantics.
If he has repented he is no longer an alcoholic.
In your books he may be a recovering alcoholic, a "recovered alcoholic," etc.
But if he has overcome the addiction he should not be labeled as an alcoholic anymore.

When Moses left the palace he murdered a man. He was labeled a murderer, and that is the reason he fled. But that label didn't stick with him the rest of his life. He became a changed man, and rarely does anyone think of "Moses, the murderer."

 

[Walter]

Did you ever see the Movie "The Producers" Walter? The parody of a flaming Homosexual in it is hilarious.....BTW the whole movie (the original with Zero Mostel is the best comic movie in my book)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6a1giOZFaQ

No, but the clip you posted on YouTube is a hoot. Think I'll try to scare up a copy at the video store.