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Pope

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Mioque said
Steaver
You a stereotypical fundie baptist US-ian who never read a Chick tract? Impossible!


"I have read many commentaries which say it is a known fact that Rome is called the city of seven hills."
"
That can be said about a number of cities, I live in one, no it's not Rome,
Mioque's "obfuscation and misdirection" is "standard fare for Mioque" so far.

Let's dump the "fluff" in Mioque's response and "stick with the point".

#1. How many well known historians refer to YOUR city as "the city of 7 hills"?? Or was that just obfuscation and misdirection on your part?

The RC members here ALREADY say that the term "Babylon" as we see in 1Peter 5 was used by NT saints to refer to Rome. Now we see it in Rev 17 and "they" prefer not to see the connection. I understand why Catholics have that incentive to duck on that point. What is yours?

#2. When steaver makes the "obvious point" - why do you immediately want to attack "fundie baptist US-ian"?? Are you really in some dark corner some place where you think that only US Baptists continue to believe what the Reformers taught??

Really??

That dark??

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Steaver said
"Even by the dictionary definition the pope, being the vicar of Christ, is in the place of Christ. How can one being in the very place of Christ, need prayer for his soul?"

Mioque quips
"
Your perception of the term vicar needs a slight adjustment.
Christ is king and the pope is his steward is basically the RC position.
Mioques ceaseless "rework" of the RC position to make it "appear" more acceptable is admirable for "some" who are married to that POV by "confirmation" I suppose.

But the RCC itself is happy to disabuse the Mioque's...


http://www.catholic.net/RCC/POPE/HopeBook/chap1.html
________________________________________
"THE POPE": A SCANDAL AND A MYSTERY

Your Holiness, my first question will go right to the point. Therefore, please understand if it is longer than those that follow.
In front of me is a man dressed in the white of ancient custom, with a cross over his chest. This man who is called the Pope (from "father," in Greek) is a mystery in and of himself, a sign of contradiction. He is even considered a challenge or a "scandal" to logic or good sense by many of our contemporaries.
Confronted with the Pope, one must make a choice. The leader of the Catholic Church is defined by the faith as the Vicar of Jesus Christ (and is accepted as such by believers). The Pope is considered the man on earth who represents the Son of God, who "takes the place" of the Second Person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity.
Each Pope regards his role with a sense of duty and humility, of course, but also with an equal sense of confidence. Catholics believe this and therefore they call him "Holy Father" or "Your Holiness."
In Christ,

Bob
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Steaver
You a stereotypical fundie baptist US-ian who never read a Chick tract? Impossible!
Just a Christian as far as what I have read in the Bible.

Think about this, you believe that you'll be up in the clouds looking down, enjoying the massacres like it was some sort of pay per view event, when that happens.
I do? :confused:

God Bless!
thumbs.gif
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Another thing about how this pope has tried to bring the differnt religions together.....a priest said on the news today (and he was pretty happy about this) that this pope said we don't need to convert the jewish people, that they are our elder brother's?? Is this true?? Does anyone know if he believed the jews (or anyone with faith in something) are going to Heaven even without accepting Jesus as their Savior?
Well, Jesus tried and did convert the Jews first and then moved on to the Gentiles. All of His disciples were converted Jews and it is letters written by Jews which we call the word of God.

Jesus told the Jews as well as us all that unless one is born again ( and that is receiving Jesus Christ) they cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

This is why this pope was actually one of the worse popes ever as far as preaching the gospel goes. In fact, have you heard even one spokes person or media head saying how this pope reached thousands of lost people for Jesus Christ?

I haven't heard it once! Unless his messages begin with you must be born again to enter heaven, that you must be saved by Jesus Christ, that you must believe He is the Son of God otherwise you cannot enter into heaven, then all of the "do good" messages are worthless for the hearer.

Here is the "vicar" of Christ and he is not remembered at all for preaching Jesus Christ the only way to heaven! How sad is that? On the contrary, he is remembered for making every religion feel good about their beliefs like they carry some sort of approval in the sight of God!

Catholics should ask themselves. Was this indeed a great pope? What did he do in this position to save souls? "Let's just all get along and do good" does not save souls and doing good and getting along may make life enjoyable on earth but what about the eternal cosequences?

This pope did nothing to aid Christ in growing the kingdom of God. Good deeds mean nothing without the foundational salvation which is found in Jesus Christ alone. Did he mention this to all of those religious leaders he met with over the years? The media sure doesn't remember any times if he ever did. All they remember is him preaching unity among religion, the very thing that Jesus was against!

I heard them say on tv that he is already being called John Paul the Great! That this is usually reserved for catholics who reach "sainthood" after death.

This is for the catholics who post here. Are you not already a saint if you are born again?

God Bless!
thumbs.gif
 

MasterWalk

New Member
The bottom line is that Pope John Paul II was a good man. I was really impressed by him when he met and prayed with his would be assassin. Pope John Paul II also forgave him, as Jesus wants us all to forgive. I would have felt honored to have met Pope John Paul II.
saint.gif
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The bottom line is that Pope John Paul II was a good man. I was really impressed by him when he met and prayed with his would be assassin. Pope John Paul II also forgave him, as Jesus wants us all to forgive.
That is impressive indeed! But the real bottom line for a "vicar of Christ" is did he preach the saving knowledge which is in Jesus Christ alone to the lost world?

God Bless!
thumbs.gif
 

mioque

New Member
Bob
"What about the answer to the question above?"
"
Chick is now holding the minority position among baptists worldwide I suspect. In fact I suspect that most Calvinists, Zwinglians and Lutherans nowadays also left 'Chick's' position.

"#1. How many well known historians refer to YOUR city as "the city of 7 hills"?? Or was that just obfuscation and misdirection on your part?"
"
Outside of the Netherlands? None I think. Nijmegen isn't exactly an important city, even if it's 2000 years old.

"#2. When steaver makes the "obvious point" - why do you immediately want to attack "fundie baptist US-ian"?? Are you really in some dark corner some place where you think that only US Baptists continue to believe what the Reformers taught??"
"
Yes. More complex answer, your/his position is declining. I think this is because it was a somewhat politically motivated position in the first place and the political strain that caused it has in large part disappeared. You think it is because the Endtimes are happening right now.

And the late pope happened to agree with me
on the meaning of the word vicar. You see I read that book as well.

In closing.

NEVER EVER use the words "in Christ" when adressing me in one of your posts again.
Save that for when you actually mean it.
 

mioque

New Member
steaver
You believe in the pre-trib rapture don't you?
So ofcourse you do.

And don't end all of your posts with "God Bless!" it won't take long before it will be perceived as a meaningless gesture, Steaver's little quirk at the end of his posts.
Only use it when it has some real significance.
 

El_Guero

New Member
Rachel

Many Christians believe that Jews will go to Heaven ... of course, I do as well - BUT ONLY THROUGH JESUS... and I think that may cut their numbers down a little bit.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
steaver
You believe in the pre-trib rapture don't you?
So ofcourse you do.
Yes, I believe that is what the scripture declares.

And don't end all of your posts with "God Bless!" it won't take long before it will be perceived as a meaningless gesture, Steaver's little quirk at the end of his posts.
Only use it when it has some real significance.
I am sorry I have offended you. I will do my best to remember not to do this when posting to you.

If any others feel the same please let me know and I will adjust my post accordingly.

I can see mioque's point. It is something I just always do, even when my comments are going to sound harsh about a given position.

Although I do hope that God will bless all of my brothers and sisters in Christ and even those who I engage with that do not believe.

Again, I am sorry mioque. I sincerely want God to bless everyone and the little guy with the big thumb I just always thought was cute. I will keep what you said in mind.

steaver
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by mioque:

Chick is now holding the minority position among baptists worldwide I suspect. In fact I suspect that most Calvinists, Zwinglians and Lutherans nowadays also left 'Chick's' position.
So in the opinion pole of "Mioque suspects" -- the Baptists and protestants are LEAVING the somewhat negative views the REFORMERs actually had of the HISTORIC RCC..

A truly interesting "suspicion" Mioque! Apparently you also "suspect" that only "Fundie Baptist Americans" would "stick with the reformation's views on Catholicism" from your slam at Steaver for agreeing with them.


You seek to obfuscate the "indicator John gives in Rev 17" regarding the city of 7 hills by claimining that your town IS ALSO known by that name - so I go to the "Salient point"...

"#1. How many well known historians refer to YOUR city as "the city of 7 hills"?? Or was that just obfuscation and misdirection on your part?"


And then you "fess up" with this answer ...

Mioque
Outside of the Netherlands? None I think. Nijmegen isn't exactly an important city, even if it's 2000 years old.
So in fact - it was a "rabbit trail" on your part - equivocating between ROME identified as the city of 7 hills by people in all of western civilization -- vs your little "nijmegen".

I see. How "predictable".


Getting back to your view above where you think the reformeers have been abandoned by the Protestants and Baptists - and now nobody remembers the role the RCC has been given in scripture (or at least they politely deny what the reformers knew about it.)


"#2. When steaver makes the "obvious point" - why do you immediately want to attack "fundie baptist US-ian"?? Are you really in some dark corner some place where you think that only US Baptists continue to believe what the Reformers taught??"


Mioque said
Yes.
Good - accurate - efficient answer.

It is indeed your position.

Mioque said --
More complex answer, your/his position is declining. I think this is because it was a somewhat politically motivated position in the first place and the political strain that caused it has in large part disappeared.
I see - more "Mioque-I-think" and "Mioque-suspects" as the "data" and "substance" for your views.

Fascinating.

That is a pretty interesting corner you occupy, I must say.

I on the other hand think that Christians are not as Bible and history illiterate as you ... presume.

Mioque said

And the late pope happened to agree with me
on the meaning of the word vicar. You see I read that book as well.
Obfuscation - the quote stands. The "in place of quote" is IN the text.

So also is "representative of the SON OF GOD" where "vicar" is the equivalent of "representative".

Even more fascinating in my view.

Mioque
In closing.

NEVER EVER use the words "in Christ"
One great idea after another in your case today Mioque.

I can not wait to see what you "suspect" next, what you "recommend" next and what you conclude as an "I-think".

As you have said - you are hoping that that it is true that Christians are moving away from the reformers positions and "As it turns out" you musings on that point are not entirely accurate.

Thank God.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Mioque quips
"
Your perception of the term vicar needs a slight adjustment.
Christ is king and the pope is his steward is basically the RC position.
Originally posted by BobRyan:

Mioques ceaseless "rework" of the RC position to make it "appear" more acceptable is admirable for "some" who are married to that POV by "confirmation" I suppose.

But the RCC itself is happy to disabuse the Mioque's...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/POPE/HopeBook/chap1.html
________________________________________
"THE POPE": A SCANDAL AND A MYSTERY

Your Holiness, my first question will go right to the point. Therefore, please understand if it is longer than those that follow.
In front of me is a man dressed in the white of ancient custom, with a cross over his chest. This man who is called the Pope (from "father," in Greek) is a mystery in and of himself, a sign of contradiction. He is even considered a challenge or a "scandal" to logic or good sense by many of our contemporaries.
Confronted with the Pope, one must make a choice. The leader of the Catholic Church is defined by the faith as the Vicar of Jesus Christ (and is accepted as such by believers). The Pope is considered the man on earth who represents the Son of God, who "takes the place" of the Second Person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity.
Each Pope regards his role with a sense of duty and humility, of course, but also with an equal sense of confidence. Catholics believe this and therefore they call him "Holy Father" or "Your Holiness."
</font>[/QUOTE]It is so great that the interview with the Pope should have included those words and then was published to the world in that exact form.

Clearly - the reader can "see" what the text says.

I wander what creative way will be found to "cover" for the quote THEY choose.

In Christ,

Bob
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Diane and DHK, to answer the question you posed about 100 years ago as to why Catholics should pray for the Pope if he's the Vicar of Christ, my understanding of Catholic teaching on the subject (please note this is not my own view ;) but I'm merely parroting what I think the Catholic POV is) is that one distinguishes between the OFFICE of Pope and the PERSON occupying that office. It is the office which is the 'Vicar of Christ' and which Catholics view in certain circumstances as infallible and the person - fallible, frail, sinful etc - for whom they pray. I think that's how Catholics explain how some of the Renaissance Popes' characters were - ahem - less than holy, but that the Petrine office remains unsullied. That's my understanding of the teaching, although I disagree with it.

Yours in Christ

Matt
 

mioque

New Member
Steaver
"I heard them say on tv that he is already being called John Paul the Great! That this is usually reserved for catholics who reach "sainthood" after death."
"
Practically no saint is called the Great. Those RC saints that have that title were great kings, or great popes as well as being saints. If Wojtyla goes down in history as JPII the Great he will be only the third pope in history to get that title (after Greg&Leo). There are on the other hand dozens of popes that got declared a saint after their deaths. Some of them were lousy popes (Pius X comes to mind).

"I am sorry mioque. I sincerely want God to bless everyone and the little guy with the big thumb I just always thought was cute."
"
I like the thumbguy as well.
But by ending every single post no matter what the subject with God Bless it starts to lose some of it's significance after a while.

Bob
Still following your false prophetess I see.
Yes I know, not a very profound argument. But I've known you for a couple of years now and when it comes to stuff that might contradict SDA orthodoxy no evidence in Heaven or on earth makes any impression on you....
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Even if that were true Matt, they are already considering this Pope to be canonized for sainthood. So why would they be concerned for his "eternal welfare," by praying "for" him. The bishop here prayed specifically for the "repose of his soul."
When I die I know I will "enter into is rest."
I will be safe in the arms of Jesus.
I will be with the Lord.

The Catholic Church has no such assurance even for a Pope that they are considering elevating to sainthood.
DHK
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I was referring to the pre-death prayers; they were praying for Karol Wojtyla the man not John Paul II the Pope, as it were. Wouldn't you want people praying for you on your deathbed? I know I would - if nothing else than for a death that was a good witness to others for the Gospel and, if possible, not too uncomfortable.

Now prayers post-death are another matter...and probably another thread!

Yours in Christ

Matt
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
In my original post I was referring to the prayers after his death. I can relate to the prayers before his death, as many of them were praying that God would heal him, extend his life, give him a painless death, etc., etc., That was easy enough to see. But the prayers after he was already dead is what I was referring to.
DHK
 

RockRambler

New Member
If thousands were crying over any other religious leader in the world, and saying things such as, "I fear for the world without his leadership" as I saw one young saying on TV, and glorifying him as they have the Pope this weekend, then all the followers would be labelled as part of a cult.

As for me, I'll always remember a man who did next to nothing when children were being abused by the priests who answered to him. Then stated that those priests were not as bad as those who remarry after divorce.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Mioque
I've known you for a couple of years now and when it comes to stuff that might contradict SDA orthodoxy no evidence in Heaven or on earth makes any impression on you....
Hmm lets see. I quote someone who DID an interview WITH the Pope AND published it.

And you quote.... now let me see - I believe that was... OH YES - you quote YOU!

And you call this "all the evidence in Heaven and earth"!! You truly are living in a dark Corner Mioque.

Step into the light.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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