Featured Post tribulation arguments

I was posting to blessedwife who is being buried by attack posts which you do not comment on.
I will get to a keyboard later on tonight to show exactly what I am posting about which are factual observations on her posting and yours, and DC.....

DC writes the encyclopedia back to BW every time she writes a sentence ...but we all read and see through it.....I support BW because she is honest and behaves according to Christian ethics which seem to be absent from others here.....we will expose this in about 6 hrs or so when I get down the road where I need to be....

 

I'd be glad to see, but prefer you get involved in the discussion itself.

Everything is literal.

That figurative language is employed does not change that.

I view it more as putting on the blinders to spiritual truth.

So you are going to tell me that none of this...


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


...is literal?

Satan is not a literal entity that is bound?

The bottomless pit is not a literal holding place with his imprisonment?

There is no literal seal that silences him for the thousand years?

He does not literally deceive the nations today?

He will not literally be loosed?

Is that supposed to be some brilliant observation?

So the Gospel of Mark and John are not literal because they do not include the number nine?

I guess the Prophecy of Isaiah has nothing literal either, based on your observation?

Now be honest...who is the man you learned that from? lol

Sure.

While I am waiting for that I will address the following.

Can you prove to me that (1) there were more than a thousand hills when this was stated and, (2) that there were cattle on them if there were? lol

Good stuff, Martin.

While we might consider this hyperbole, the point is that God is Sovereign.

That differs when it comes to using timeframes in Prophecy.

The thousand years mentioned here...


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


...is given a specific start and end date. The thousandth year. There are three groups in view, Satan, Tribulation Martyrs, and the dead.

That is quite different than hyperbole meant to express "a long time."

Simply meant to state time is irrelevant to the Eternal God.

Does not state a specific period in Prophecy, and I charge you to show one instance when it does not.

Continued...

 

Same thing, simply meant to state time is irrelevant to the Eternal God.

Lets look at something relevant to Prophecy and times given:


Revelation 9

King James Version (KJV)

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.


What do your spiritual eyes make of this timeframe?

Not literal? The Word of God is in error and mistaken about five months being five months?

Peter is not speaking about an event in prophecy, he is using figurative language to describe God's relationship to time.

First, I would like to know how you arrive (1) that there have not been a thousand generations, and (2), if there has not been, how you do not know that when this universe passes away it will not arrive at one thousand generations to the generation?

That aside, this is an open ended statement of truth which simply states God's Sovereignty as well as His will. In other words, that which He has commanded will not change.

No, it is not obvious, but the opposite. Any time a specific time is given for a specific event...we can count on it being a literal period.

Here is another literal timeframe:


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


And both of these timeframes correspond to the Prophecy that went before it:


Daniel 12:6-12

King James Version (KJV)

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



No way to blame spiritual eyes for disannulling Prophecy.

Here we see that there are three and a half years allotted for the Tribulation from the point of the Abomination of Desolation. Added to that is first 30 days, then 45 more, making a total of 3 1/2 years plus a 75 day period.

Spiritualize that for me.

Tell me that the same time period, the Tribulation...is not in view.

Tell me that the Antichrist is not literal, that the Temple is not literally made desolate, and in doing so what you are telling me is you do not believe the Word of God.

It's right there.

This corresponds, by the way, with the death of the Two Witnesses after their 3 1/2 years ministry, the rise of Antichrist who kills the Two Witnesses, and the command by Christ to flee when this takes place...


Matthew 24:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


And when we balance the Prophecy we see that Israel, not the Church, is preserved for the remaining 3 1/2 years:


Revelation 12:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


That seventy five days left over? Consult Matthew 25.

So consider that rather than thinking because something doesn't appear, like certain numbers, maybe you should be considering that specific timeframes for specific events, particularly events prophesied in the Old Testament...mean just what they say.

To spiritualize everything instead of simply seeing the literal teaching though described in figurative speech is just one of the mistakes which leads to erroneous positions on a number of issues.

But you are a first. Not sure I have ever had anyone say...

Simply amazing.

Hey, thanks!


God bless.

 

If you would like to show where I am a liar feel free to, and we can also examine your understanding of what it means to be honest.

And your cheerleading is still not helping anyone.

Haven't gotten to your friend's responses yet, so we will see if an honest treatment of some very simple issues has been forthcoming.

If you have something you want to say about me, say it to me, rather than backbiting in hopes of ingratiating yourself to someone else.


God bless.

 

There is a conversation/debate going on between her and DC. Do you want me to start my own line of questioning at the same time, or take the high road and not to interfere with the current debate? I think the latter would be the wiser thing to do.

Your cheerleading has already been noted, along with the negative attack ads.

Perhaps you haven't read very objectively--only through rose-colored Calvinistic glasses.

First, BW presented a general outline of the book of Hebrews.
Since that time DC has been trying to get her to narrow the discussion down. (It is impossible to speak of one book).
He has narrowed it down now to a passage from Hebrews 10. (Heb.10:1-4).

So his last post was:

And as you can observe: There is no response.

 

Yeah, that is noticed, and it is a little disgusting if you ask me.

She is being challenged to actually face the issues that are relevant.

You will be too.

Can't wait.

I like to be thorough...you have a problem with that?

Every statement is going to be addressed as needed, and who is being honest, and who is attacking...is really quite clear.

That is the point of this entire exercise. Once again a thread is derailed and charges based on false premise ensue.

Now you guys can either stay on topic, or deal with the fallout, which is simply forcing the issues you so erroneously post.

For her, it began with saying DHK said Spurgeon was a Dispensationalist. That has been addressed, and to my knowledge, she has still not admitted that error.

Now the conversation deals with the Distinction drawn between Israel and the Church.

And as far as I can it has nothing to do with you. If you want to get into the discussion great. If you want a repeat of the last time, that's okay too.

Who is "we all?" lol

So you feel you need to support her?

A matter of perspective.

Great.

Look forward to it, though I will likely have to get to it in the morning.


God bless.

 

Would, "the taken," or, "the left," of Matthew equate to; that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. of 1 Thes 4:15

Where are they preceding to?

 

No, the taken and left are those who are alive when the Lord Returns.

While in Matthew there is just a small mention of the eagles gathering...


Matthew 24:27-28

King James Version (KJV)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


...we see in Luke a little more detail given, and we can pick up the context early to see that in view is the same event described in Matthew 24:


Luke 17:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


So we can safely conclude that the context remains that which is the theme of both chapters, which that of the Lord's Return. We see that His Return involves judgment, and that is here likened to the judgment visited on those in Noah's day.

To make it clear to His students the Lord again gives an example of judgment...


28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


...and we see again it is the same context, the Lord's Return. And a primary thrust of this teaching is "When I return there will be judgment like there was in those two examples."


31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.


I take this to mean "Do what I tell you." Wife disobeyed the directive of God and was herself included in the judgment she should have escaped. Disobedience is often connected with unbelief, and that unbelievers are in view is made clear in Matthew 25.


33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


Here it is made clear that physical death is involved in this judgment.



34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Now here is where we see His terms defined:


37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


The disciples are asking "Where are they taken?" I guess we could try to make it say "Where are they left," but taken seems to fit better, I think.

Regardless, what we can say is that His primary thrust is one of judgment, and whether it refers to taken or left, the end result is physical death. That is what happened in the examples, and that is why He uses them. It is not until we get to Matthew 25 that we see that in the Judgment of the Sheep and Goats, it is the believers who are "left" alive, while the unbelievers are taken in judgment and their death is described as entrance to eternal punishment.

Christ taught, in regards to the Millennial Kingdom, that nothing that offends will enter that Kingdom, and that only those born again would.

We see this imagery in the Old Testament:


Ezekiel 39

King James Version (KJV)

39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.


We see it in the New Testament:


Revelation 19:17-21

King James Version (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


This shows the consistency of Prophecy and Christ's teaching. We have the enemies of God slain which corresponds to Christ's teaching about judgment when He returns, and those who are left enter into that Kingdom:


Matthew 25:31-34 & 41

King James Version (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


We would not really consider those that remain alive to be "taken." And we look at this and consider that these Sheep are not glorified, but rather than being destroyed physically, they are spared, which leaves them in their current state, which is like unto ours today: physical and born again.

The singular problem, as mentioned before, for the Post-Tribulation view is that if the Rapture occurs at Christ's Return, then we have a few problems to reconcile.

The first would be that this does not depict a Rapture, but simply the gathering prophesied in the Old Testament.

Secondly, Paul does not include unbelievers in his Rapture teachings.

Third, Revelation 20 excludes the Rapture of the Church because only Tribulation Martyrs are mentioned, and nothing about those still living is mentioned.

Fourth, it conflicts with Christ's teaching such as we have just looked at.

Fifth, and finally (for now), this scenario leaves no physical believers who will have offspring that rebel against God when Satan is released from his imprisonment:


Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


The only possible way this multitude of rebels could come about is if there are physical descendants of the born again believers who are the Sheep of Matthew 25. Paul taught that the Rapture of the Church would include both those who are living as well as those who are dead, and they are all glorified at this time. We would have to get into some serious speculative ideas to reconcile these problems, but...

...we need not do that.

The Pre-Tribulational Rapture is the only view that can be reconciled without negating other teachings, as all groups who have embraced another view are forced to do. They leave Scripture in a shambles because they have to remove a great many prophecies and promises of God in order to make their system work.

God bless.

 

Here we go in post 51 DHK posts this against O>R>;

DHK POSTS THAT OR IS POSTING A LIE


BW318 responds;

Being an honest person she knows where the lie is found.
It was not in OR'S post...nope.

It was not in the dispensational college she attended....nope...they taught her the truth as they also were honest...

BW spots the source and comments on it:thumbs:I bolded that in red..
in post 145 DHK claims this however:laugh:

However...BW started posting to DHK HERE in the 50's...lol he already had spoken to her....so much for the high road I guess.


This is perhaps to cover not saying anything about DC's posts.

post 54..she responds to revmac drive by post....
she says

 

Now she appeals to revmac and others for.....HONESTY.... she sees it is lacking.

yet DHK DOES THIS;

In other posts he has disagreed...he has been snagged...so he finds this quote trying to create a smokescreen:laugh:...gotta love it:thumbs:

OR has pointed this out dozens of times:laugh: BW sees who is lying, comments and now the tune changes:laugh:

 

DHK tries to sneak this in...speaking of the high road:laugh:

It had fallen out of favor for 1500 years:laugh:

Good point BW....I would have to question that also!.....I am glad to just sit back and be a cheerleader as you unravel this dog and pony show....good work BW!

 

She sees more dishonesty and crushes it....here;

 

Now she toasts the rest of the falsehood!

link
What is strikingly absent from these triumphant declarations of
the future earthly reign of Christ, however, is the nation of Israel.
link
dispensational characteristics
on the other hand, begin to make sense. Like the dispensationalist,
Watts sees progressive stages in the outworking of God’s plan in the
world. But Watts understands that plan much differently than the dispensationalist.
He sees the plan of God as rooted in a covenant of
grace, manifested primarily in spiritual blessings upon the church, and
culminated in the spiritual reign of Christ over his church with no
place for national Israel.

link
Can't be a Dispensationalist if you don't see the Church and Israel as distinct. And you really can't if you believe that the Church has replaced Israel which is why Watts cannot be counted among the Dispensationalist camp.



Then do so. I have seen that claim many times but on further investigation it has always fallen apart. At best what I have seen is people taking the Classical Premillennial teachings and try to shove Dispensationalism into it but it doesn't work, they are too distinct from each other to be merged together throughout history.


Again if that is true that all Darby did was put "these things together" you should be able to show a clear historical trend of Dispensational teaching. I look forward to see that, because as I have said before my Dispensational Bible College did not have a problem stating that Darby was the founder of Dispensational thought, they made no claims to Classical Premillennialism. But maybe you know something that my Professors there did not.[/QUOTE]
that is game set and match...BW318 in a landslide:wavey::thumbs:

 

She had already responded to the OP and gave a reason before the thread was derailed....she had to pause...[a parenthesis in the thread:thumbs:to address the falsehoods.

 

This is quite dishonest as they know exactly what they are doing:thumbs:

 

Nothing to laugh at Icon. It doesn't matter who OR quotes, even if it is Darby itself. His argument is lame, as is yours. You just don't get it.
First: There is not a dispensationalist on this board that has admitted to believing in a "parenthetial church" that OR demands that we believe.
Second: Therefore OR is bearing false witness against us. That is the pure and simple truth.
You won't accept the fact that not all dispensationalists believe the same thing. You guys never have. You would rather debate a book than a person.

You are so deceptive, you are dishonest and ought to be ashamed.
Icon, the words you quoted "so much about taking the high road" came from post 145! during my conversation with you. Now you are quoting almost 100 posts earlier about me entering into this conversation in posts preceding the ones that I was speaking about to you. You are doing the same thing with this thread that you do with scripture--ignoring context! :laugh:
Never learn do you??

 

Darrell C

you have not followed the thread evidently.....Spurgeon had nothing to do with it...the use of him was deceptive as pointed out.....but that was not the main point but you seek to divert away from what was said.

she responded to what was being offered...and destroyed the false illusion.

Here you begin your nasty responses which were uncalled for. Dhk says nothing because he was the one being toasted.....but he claims later on he was taking the HIGH ROAD:laugh:...yeah sure!

She was 100% CORRECT. You show once again you do not know what you are talking about....oh yeah I forget....Spurgeon is all wrong and you are correct.....people should not read Spurgeon, they should read your posts instead:laugh: You are a legend in your mind...let me compile your quotes from BB and replace Spurgeons Metropolitan Tabernacle ane new park Street pulpit from my library:laugh:

red herring

You will not refute that there is a Rapture;
red herring
You will not refute there will be a Tribulation which is distinct period prophesied;
red herring..it is past
You will not refute that there will be a one thousand year period following the Tribulation;
red herring

You will not refute that Israel was not the Church;
red herring

And you will not refute any First Century Biblical teaching, which all of these are.
Chiliasts are not premill dispys....lol

you cannot

 

Now...I could not get to it last night...no online access.... but I will show you from one of your own allies how you are the one in denial.....lol

From Jeromes post;

[QUOTEDispensationalism, although still young by Spurgeon's time, did predate Spurgeon's ministry by a decade or so. John Nelson Darby and the "Brethren" were very influential and began spreading their system by the late 1830's. Bebbington states:

[/QUOTE]

This is what the position is.....if it is not yours...do not call yourself a dispensationalist......do not mix the views together unless you are going to state you have a mixed up view.

 

This is what the position is.....if it is not yours...do not call yourself a dispensationalist......do not mix the views together unless you are going to state you have a mixed up view.

 

Now this....

[QUOTEYou are so deceptive, you are dishonest and ought to be ashamed.
Icon, the words you quoted "so much about taking the high road" came from post 145! during my conversation with you. Now you are quoting almost 100 posts earlier about me entering into this conversation in posts preceding the ones that I was speaking about to you. You are doing the same thing with this thread that you do with scripture--ignoring context! :laugh:
Never learn do you??[/][/QUOTE]


You have been caught and toasted by BW318...so according to your M.O. you project it on me but to no avail....

Yes ...I exposed your "high road" post for the wag the dog that it was....lol

She already caught you...you got quiet....Dc jumped in....so you then try and make like you had not commented here.....but as I went back to show that is not how it happened at all......it was you she started with...she saw your revisionist history and reacted immediately .....no deception at all except your attempt at it.....She saw it the same exact way!