Postincarnate Christ

[ThyWordIsTruth]

Ouch! You are so right. My big mistake here. I mistyped.

It should read:
"I assume you believe that the post-ascension Christ has flesh, which I do not believe"

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify.

can you please give one Scripture that shows Jesus did not have a "flesh" body after He ascended?

 

[asterisktom]

Acknowledged.
With that, I would counter with "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

The Scripture you have provided are as follows:



Setting aside any LOGIC contained in your commentary, nothing in any of these verses and partial verses even comes close to suggesting that the body Jesus had when He challenged Thomas to touch His side and His hands was transformed at His ascension. Therefore you have presented nothing more than unsupported conjecture.

If we are setting aside logic in our presentation of Scripture how can we precede? The Spirit teaches us individually, yes, but when we discus our beliefs with each other we inevitably also must use logic. But you want to set it aside. What would you put in its place?

Instead of logic - the tools of reasoned discourse - you wave your wand over my verses and breezily nullify them.

Yes, I agree, we have no verse that explicitly tells us that His body was transformed post ascension. But the proof is in passages, a sample of which I quoted. Neither are we explicitly told the truth about the Trinity. Yet I assume you believe it. How? Putting verses together. And for that we use your set aside logic.

I know a dead-end discussion when I see one.

 

[asterisktom]

can you please give one Scripture that shows Jesus did not have a "flesh" body after He ascended?

Can you give me one Scripture that says that He has a flesh body after He ascended?

 

[canadyjd]

Well, I cannot make you read my OP more carefully. You interacted with none of the verses I provided. Your assertions have no teeth because you have no Scripture.

Well, I’ll ask you directly and see if you will answer directly.

Do you believe God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, added humanity to His deity for the rest of eternity?

A simple yes or no will do.

peace to you

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

Can you give me one Scripture that says that He has a flesh body after He ascended?

I see nothing here about the post-ascension body of Jesus Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you give me one Scripture that says that He has a flesh body after He ascended?

He was raised up in the same Body died with, and that SAME Jesus will appear still!

 

[Yeshua1]

I see nothing here about the post-ascension body of Jesus Christ!

That would be the very same Body He had walking around with after resurrection!

 

[asterisktom]

Well, I’ll ask you directly and see if you will answer directly.

Do you believe God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, added humanity to His deity for the rest of eternity?

A simple yes or no will do.

peace to you

You want a simple answer to a complicated question. OK, yes. I said as much when I said He was the Son of Man. Does that satisfy your shibboleth?

Now here is the rub: What is meant by humanity? If you say that it has to include flesh and blood - or even physicality - then I strongly disagree. I wrote my reasons for this in the OP.

 

[atpollard]

Rather than LOGIC apart from the explicit teaching of scripture, I prefer logic applied to the explicit teaching of scripture. So here is Acts 1 leading up to the Ascension and immediately following.

[Act 1:1-11 NASB] 1 The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when He was taken up [to heaven,] after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. 3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over [a period of] forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God. 4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," [He said,] "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

• An interruption for a brief observation: There is absolutely no doubt that Jesus had a real and physical body from his resurrection up to his ascension. It is also obvious that this body was different from his pre-crucifixion human body.

6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

• Observation: Jesus is standing and talking to his disciples in his physical post-resurrection body.

9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

• Observation: After Jesus said these things to his disciples in his physical post-resurrection body, He was "lifted up".
• It says "He" (Jesus in his physical post-resurrection body) "was lifted up".
• It does not say "He was transformed".
• It does say "while they were looking on", so if Jesus was transformed from a physical post-resurrection body to a Spirit Being, they would have seen it and could have recorded it ... but they reported no transformation.
• It is illogical to assume they saw something of fundamental importance but neglected to mention it.
• It is logical to assume that they saw the physical post-resurrection body that was standing next to them talking with them "lifted up" since that is exactly what they wrote happened.

10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

• Observation: The angelic messengers make no reference to any transformation.
• The angels affirm that "This Jesus" (the physical post-resurrection body) "has been taken up from you into heaven".
• Jesus WAS taken (according to the angels).
  
• Jesus WAS NOT transformed (the angels make no mention of it).
• Jesus "will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
• Jesus was "lifted up" into a cloud, so Jesus will be "lowered down" from a cloud.
• Jesus was lifted up in His physical post-resurrection body, so Jesus will be lowered down in His physical post-resurrection body.

Nothing suggests that Jesus did not ascend in his post-resurrection body and everything suggests that Jesus will return with his post-resurrection body.

 

[canadyjd]

You want a simple answer to a complicated question. OK, yes. I said as much when I said He was the Son of Man. Does that satisfy your shibboleth?

Now here is the rub: What is meant by humanity? If you say that it has to include flesh and blood - or even physicality - then I strongly disagree. I wrote my reasons for this in the OP.

The scripture is clear humanity equals physical. Jesus took on physical humanity for all eternity.

Paul is very clear the physical body that we have will be resurrected just as the physical body Jesus had and has was resurrected.

Our hope for the resurrection is based on the fact that Jesus was resurrected physically and so will we be.

peace to you

 

[asterisktom]

The scripture is clear humanity equals physical. Jesus took on physical humanity for all eternity.

Paul is very clear the physical body that we have will be resurrected just as the physical body Jesus had and has was resurrected.

Our hope for the resurrection is based on the fact that Jesus was resurrected physically and so will we be.

peace to you

Please think this over. Did the saints in Christ in ages past lose their humanity when they died? Because they surely were not physical after they died.

The irreducible aspect of humanity is not physical. Flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

Question: Did Moses or David cease to be human when they died? Yes or no.

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

The scripture is clear humanity equals physical. Jesus took on physical humanity for all eternity.

Paul is very clear the physical body that we have will be resurrected just as the physical body Jesus had and has was resurrected.

Our hope for the resurrection is based on the fact that Jesus was resurrected physically and so will we be.

peace to you

but the post resurrection body is not the same as what we have while alive. as it is with Jesus

 

[Rob_BW]

Can you give me one Scripture that says that He has a flesh body after He ascended?

Since He has the body of flesh during the ascension, I feel that the burden of proof lays on those saying that body is no more. Maybe this is unfair of me. But our description of Jesus in John's Revelation seem to describe a body.

 

[asterisktom]

Rather than LOGIC apart from the explicit teaching of scripture, I prefer logic applied to the explicit teaching of scripture. So here is Acts 1 leading up to the Ascension and immediately following.

[Act 1:1-11 NASB] 1 The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when He was taken up [to heaven,] after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. 3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over [a period of] forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God. 4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," [He said,] "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

• An interruption for a brief observation: There is absolutely no doubt that Jesus had a real and physical body from his resurrection up to his ascension. It is also obvious that this body was different from his pre-crucifixion human body.

6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

• Observation: Jesus is standing and talking to his disciples in his physical post-resurrection body.

9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

• Observation: After Jesus said these things to his disciples in his physical post-resurrection body, He was "lifted up".
• It says "He" (Jesus in his physical post-resurrection body) "was lifted up".
• It does not say "He was transformed".
• It does say "while they were looking on", so if Jesus was transformed from a physical post-resurrection body to a Spirit Being, they would have seen it and could have recorded it ... but they reported no transformation.
• It is illogical to assume they saw something of fundamental importance but neglected to mention it.
• It is logical to assume that they saw the physical post-resurrection body that was standing next to them talking with them "lifted up" since that is exactly what they wrote happened.

10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

• Observation: The angelic messengers make no reference to any transformation.
• The angels affirm that "This Jesus" (the physical post-resurrection body) "has been taken up from you into heaven".
• Jesus WAS taken (according to the angels).
  
• Jesus WAS NOT transformed (the angels make no mention of it).
• Jesus "will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
• Jesus was "lifted up" into a cloud, so Jesus will be "lowered down" from a cloud.
• Jesus was lifted up in His physical post-resurrection body, so Jesus will be lowered down in His physical post-resurrection body.

Nothing suggests that Jesus did not ascend in his post-resurrection body and everything suggests that Jesus will return with his post-resurrection body.

So now you are changing tactics. First you downplayed my logic. Then you present your own logic - with your own set of Scripture. No. I am not playing this game. You brush aside my Scriptures A, B, C, D, E and say "What about Scripture F and G?"

No. First deal with my Scripture honestly and fairly and then we will tackle Acts 1. Can we do that?

 

[asterisktom]

Since he He has the body of flesh during the ascension, I feel that the burden of proof lays on those saying that body is no more. Maybe this is unfair of me. But our description of Jesus in John's Revelation seem to describe a body.

Hello, Rob. Could you please pinpoint the verse or verses you have in mind in Revelation?

It is time for bed here. I will get back to this tomorrow.

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

Can you give me one Scripture that says that He has a flesh body after He ascended?

Jesus' body after His Resurrection was indeed physical. He made it a point to tell the Disciples to touch Him. After which Jesus ascended to heaven. There is no a SINGLE Bible text that says His body changed again, and that somehow His flesh body disappeared in any way. I really cannot understand why you, or anyone else, would spend so much time on such specualtion? The Bible no where warrants such "theology", so why make such a big issue about nothing?

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

This thread is getting quite boring as it has nothing to do with what the Bible actually teaches. Other than someone who has convinced himself about something that is nothing more than speculation about nothing! I have said my last on this, as I don't want to waste more time discussing nothing!

 

[Yeshua1]

You want a simple answer to a complicated question. OK, yes. I said as much when I said He was the Son of Man. Does that satisfy your shibboleth?

Now here is the rub: What is meant by humanity? If you say that it has to include flesh and blood - or even physicality - then I strongly disagree. I wrote my reasons for this in the OP.

Is Jesus still in a Human body and form?

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus' body after His Resurrection was indeed physical. He made it a point to tell the Disciples to touch Him. After which Jesus ascended to heaven. There is no a SINGLE Bible text that says His body changed again, and that somehow His flesh body disappeared in any way. I really cannot understand why you, or anyone else, would spend so much time on such specualtion? The Bible no where warrants such "theology", so why make such a big issue about nothing?

He MUST get rid of Jesus having still a physical body, being a full preterist, as we just have a spiritual resurrection now, not a bodily one!

 

[canadyjd]

....
The irreducible aspect of humanity is not physical. Flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

You are saying you will agree Jesus took on humanity forever but only if you can deny the physical aspect of humanity. The resurrected body of Jesus, and ours, are changed or transformed. They are glorified physical bodies, but they are physical.

Paul calls resurrected bodies “spiritual bodies”. If I remember correctly, the word for “body” is “sarx” which means “flesh”. So Paul is combining spiritual and physical in his explanation; affirming both and denying neither in the reality of the resurrection.

Again, this is an old heresy. I think Gnosticism began in the first century denied the humanity of Jesus. It has been rejected for nearly 2000 years.

peace to you