Postincarnate Christ

[asterisktom]

[Luke 16:22-26 NASB] 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and [that] none may cross over from there to us.'

• Physical forms are carried, non-corporeal spirits are not.
• Physical eyes are implied
• A physical finger is explicitly stated.
• Physical water is explicitly stated.
• A physical tongue is explicitly stated.
• (Placing water on a tongue with a finger supports the eyes looking up also being physical)
• The agony appears to be real, as does the flame ... which suggests a real body suffering real pain in real fire.
• A great chasm is a physical obstacle that would only stop physical bodies. Spirits are able to cross chasms.

There is most definitely far more than a "hint" of physicality in this story.
My objection stands, why would Jesus deliberately misrepresent the afterlife if he knew that there was no physical form beyond death?

Somehow I overlooked this post. Sorry about that. I will need to get back to this when I again have more time. But for now I give a partial answer and that is that God uses imagery that is not intended to be understand exactly, but is a concession to our limited perception. For instance we read that hypocritical worshippers are a "stench in the nostrils of God", or God referred to as having ears or eyes, or Jesus saying "I am the door of the sheep".

 

[MB]

That is not my point. Do you even read my posts for understanding, or just ammunition?

I would have to read it, for either wouldn't I?
MB

 

[asterisktom]

I would have to read it, for either wouldn't I?
MB

I would say it is best to look first for information. None of us have all the answers and we need each other to bounce ideas off, iron sharpening iron. That goes for me as well.

 

[George Antonios]

No, the announcement of Gabriel proves no such connection. You have four "shalls" here, but that does not mean that they all happen at the same time are connected by causation. You have other verses about the Christ the Son in both the Old and New Testament indicating other interpretations.

"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:" - Romans 1:3-4

When is He the Son here. Not at birth.

But this is just one example. You can also look at Psalm 1 and 2, Proverbs 30:4, and other passages.

But all of this is getting far afield from the main point I am trying to make. One of the best proofs of my point is in 1 Cor. 15, as I wrote in the other post.

It is the crux of the matter, for if Christ is no more flesh, then Christ is no more the Son of God, by definition.

If you cannot see BIRTH as the causation of Son, then yeah, I can't do anything past that.

 

[asterisktom]

It is the crux of the matter, for if Christ is no more flesh, then Christ is no more the Son of God, by definition.

If you cannot see BIRTH as the causation of Son, then yeah, I can't do anything past that.

I showed you how you your definition was not correct. But, oh well, no point continuing this with you.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

*t, if the premise is that being human is not about the body but about the spirit, then I concur without argument, as it, and not our opposable thumbs, is what distinguishes us from beasts. Man alone was made in the image of God.

If the premise is that we need no bodies whatsoever to fully enjoy our humanity, then I object, but only because the Bible describes us with much different bodies enjoying a new, enriched creation, all of a physics we can only very poorly imagine.

 

[asterisktom]

*t, if the premise is that being human is not about the body but about the spirit, then I concur without argument, as it, and not our opposable thumbs, is what distinguishes us from beasts. Man alone was made in the image of God.

If the premise is that we need no bodies whatsoever to fully enjoy our humanity, then I object, but only because the Bible describes us with much different bodies enjoying a new, enriched creation, all of a physics we can only very poorly imagine.

I do not say that we will have no bodies. They will be changed, glorified and, according to 1 Cor 15, like Christ's, not physical. The purpose is for us not merely to fully enjoy our humanity, but to fully enjoy Him.

See my post number 97.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

The purpose is for us not merely to fully enjoy our humanity, but to fully enjoy Him. See my post number 97.

But one cannot fully enjoy his humanity without fully enjoying God. (How does post #97 relate?)

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I do not say that we will have no bodies. They will be changed, glorified and, according to 1 Cor 15, like Christ's, not physical.

Saying not this creation, not this physics, is not the same as saying no creation, no physics at all, which is what you seem to be saying, but with no need.

While I'm at it, I might as well muddy the waters by mentioning that I do not agree with those that say angels must be bodiless. I only agree that they are not bound by our physics, our dimensions.

Also, *t, I don't think you are saying otherwise, but I think it should be noted that Christians are not said to be destined to be like God in being omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.

 

[timtofly]

Paul gave us the definition of a resurrected body. It is incorruptible.

The immortal body is the glorified body.

All OT believers and those dead in Christ over the last 1990 years have been raised in Christ and given incorruptible bodies. These bodies are in Paradise, and the thief on the cross, went that day. Jesus and the OT saints ascended on Sunday afternoon.

The glorified body will be given at the Second Coming when the church is presented as whole with those alive on earth given an incorruptible and glorified body instantly. Those incorruptible bodies of those dead in Christ will be brought down in Paradise as well. We will oversee with God on the throne the final harvest of all Adam's descendants in their physical corrupt flesh and blood bodies. By Armageddon all flesh and blood will die the first death. The next day, some will be raised to incorruptible bodies and live on earth in righteousness forever. The rest to eternal damnation in Death, until the GWT. Then all the dead will be cast into the lake of fire.

There is only one general resurrection of OT believers. One general resurrection of the final harvest. The church since the Cross has had an ongoing physical resurrection for 1990 years. This can only be the case since all are in Christ. Christ was bodily raised, and the church in Christ is bodily raised with incorruptible bodies.

They did not have to wait, nor do the OT believers have to wait for the living. Stating resurrection any other way is against God’s Word that the living cannot prevent this ongoing resurrection. Not even with theology or doctrine that has kept them bodily dead for 6000 years. John says the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is not for the church. That is the only general resurrection in Revelation, because John never records a bodily resurrection of the church. The church is bodily in Paradise under the alter (Atonement completed). The church is only waiting for the Second Coming when all the church as one is glorified. That is the 6th seal. The 6th seal is the Second Coming. Then the harvest. Then the Millennium. That is the only logical and Scriptural time frame for the church.

This can only be true as Paul states there is constantly a great crowd of witnesses watching our every move. Not just the form of a soul. But yet all are still awaiting their glorified bodies, when the church is complete. All are waiting for the 4th, 5th, and 6th seal to be opened. It could happen at any moment.

 

[Salty]

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[Salty]

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