Postmillennialism

[evangelist6589]

I had a dream that I was talking with an angel who gave me the secrets to theology in a number of areas. In the area of eschatology he said that postmillennialism was the correct interpretation and the others the incorrect ones. It's been a while since I studied this eschatology so besides Ken Gentry who holds to It and believes it correct?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Puritans were mostly Postmillennial. I've been re-reading The Puritan Hope by Iain Murray, and while it hasn't converted me to Postmil, it has encouraged me to be more optimistic. Things are so bad for the Church in Britain right now that we seem to have the mentality of Captain Kirk being attacked by the Klingons. We're just waiting for Scotty to beam us up out of the desperate situation.

Yet in 1712, at another time of terrible declension in England, Isaac Watts published his hymn Jesus shall Reign where e're the Sun, and in God's good time, revival came.

Around 1790, William Carey delivered his 'deathless sermon' on Isaiah 54:1-3. In it, he likened the Church of his day to a barren woman, but she is not to languish but prepare for great blessing, because God will yet do wonderful things for her and through her. This sermon sparked off the modern missionary movement. Carey's watchword was, "Expect great things; attempt great things!"

So whilst I'm not ready to swallow the whole Postmil thing, I think we should be noting the amazing things that God is doing in various parts of the world, and be praying constantly for Him to do the same in Britain and America.

 

[JonC]

I think postmillennialism has declined largely because it has proven, to many, contrary to experience. I read somewhere that there was a sharp decline as WWII ended and people became less hopeful that the Church would usher in the reign of Christ. Anyway, while I do not see how the view is without serious problems, for some reason R.C. Sproul keeps coming to mind. Is he post-mil or did he just tell me he was in a dream?

 

[Yeshua1]

I think postmillennialism has declined largely because it has proven, to many, contrary to experience. I read somewhere that there was a sharp decline as WWII ended and people became less hopeful that the Church would usher in the reign of Christ. Anyway, while I do not see how the view is without serious problems, for some reason R.C. Sproul keeps coming to mind. Is he post-mil or did he just tell me he was in a dream?

Thought that he now was a partial pretierist?

 

[Yeshua1]

I had a dream that I was talking with an angel who gave me the secrets to theology in a number of areas. In the area of eschatology he said that postmillennialism was the correct interpretation and the others the incorrect ones. It's been a while since I studied this eschatology so besides Ken Gentry who holds to It and believes it correct?

Strange that would be the true answer though, as the Bible clearly states that before Jesus comes back, its gets worse and worse, as God Himself will judge the earth system and people before that Event, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

The Puritans were mostly Postmillennial. I've been re-reading The Puritan Hope by Iain Murray, and while it hasn't converted me to Postmil, it has encouraged me to be more optimistic. Things are so bad for the Church in Britain right now that we seem to have the mentality of Captain Kirk being attacked by the Klingons. We're just waiting for Scotty to beam us up out of the desperate situation.

Yet in 1712, at another time of terrible declension in England, Isaac Watts published his hymn Jesus shall Reign where e're the Sun, and in God's good time, revival came.

Around 1790, William Carey delivered his 'deathless sermon' on Isaiah 54:1-3. In it, he likened the Church of his day to a barren woman, but she is not to languish but prepare for great blessing, because God will yet do wonderful things for her and through her. This sermon sparked off the modern missionary movement. Carey's watchword was, "Expect great things; attempt great things!"

So whilst I'm not ready to swallow the whole Postmil thing, I think we should be noting the amazing things that God is doing in various parts of the world, and be praying constantly for Him to do the same in Britain and America.

Think that God is doing those great things for the purpose of getting out to all the message of Jesus, and to show that Jesus is indeed the Lord in nations and peoples closed off to that pretty much until now!

 

[Jope]

I had a dream that I was talking with an angel who gave me the secrets to theology in a number of areas. In the area of eschatology he said that postmillennialism was the correct interpretation and the others the incorrect ones. It's been a while since I studied this eschatology so besides Ken Gentry who holds to It and believes it correct?

Loraine boettner is another one. Hodge, Whitby, Edwards, Augustus strong, some claim Calvin was. Snowden apparently has a greasy premillennial refute in his the coming of the Lord (1919). I doubt it though.


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[Yeshua1]

Loraine boettner is another one. Hodge, Whitby, Edwards, Augustus strong, some claim Calvin was. Snowden apparently has a greasy premillennial refute in his the coming of the Lord (1919). I doubt it though.


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Would say though that either pre Mil/A Mil would have better scripture support!

 

[Iconoclast]

Strange that would be the true answer though, as the Bible clearly states that before Jesus comes back, its gets worse and worse, as God Himself will judge the earth system and people before that Event, correct?

Again.....show where the bible says it gets worse and worse.....the passages you are thinking are in their could have been speaking of the events of 70ad.

 

[Iconoclast]

Would say though that either pre Mil/A Mil would have better scripture support!

you say that, but offer none....if it were up to you there would be no support.

 

[Jeep Dragon]

Whenever we see Jesus mentioning "the kingdom of God" or "the kingdom of heaven," it seems as if sometimes He is talking about the afterlife in heaven and sometimes talking about the Christian life on earth.

Jesus gave a generic hint about when "the kingdom of God" is come:

Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

What would Jesus mean by "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you."? Does it sound like a future kingdom proposed by premillennialism or even postmillennialism or could the "kingdom of God" being mention be some kind of "spiritual kingdom" on earth where Jesus has power over the devils?

Maybe a lot of people assume that any definition "kingdom" always has to do with a kingdom in the way that man defines it--humans ruling over other humans in some kind of cast system. Here is more evidence that there could be a current "spiritual kingdom":

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

It seems like the Pharisees were assuming that the "kingdom of God" has to be some kind of "obvious kingdom" that would have some physical king with a fancy robe and scepter, but Jesus seemed to be telling them that no one can even pinpoint exactly where this "kingdom" is or how it came about, but we can look now because the "kingdom of God" is "within you."

If we look at eschatology in simple terms of "this age" and "the age to come" like all forms of eschatology except for hyper preterism, whenever we see "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" being described, we can assume it in context of either "this age" or "the age to come."

The Parable of the Wheat and Tares:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This parable doesn't sound like it is talking about "the age to come," because no one sleeps in heaven and no enemy would sow tares in heaven. Does a future kingdom on earth as described by premillennialism have enough tares among the wheat to be an issue? If postmillennialism were true, it doesn't sound like the end of the harvest would have enough tares that they can be "bound in bundles" if the whole earth supposedly "rolls out the red carpet to invite Jesus in." Jesus even defined the parable:

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If the field is the world and the good seed are the children of the kingdom, it does not sound like it is talking about a kingdom that includes everyone. It sounds more like the kingdom being discussed is a kingdom regenerate people who need to live with their enemies who present a problem to them. That doesn't sound to me like a future kingdom on earth like the premillennial view where we get to be sinless immortals who get to smack around the sinful mortals. That also doesn't sound to me like a kingdom like the postmillennial view, because the parable doesn't seem to act like the tares are slowly being removed prior to the harvest.

What do you all think? Does the amillennial view make any sense or does the premillennial or postmillennial view have better interpretations of these passages?

 

[AresMan]

Again.....show where the bible says it gets worse and worse.....the passages you are thinking are in their could have been speaking of the events of 70ad.

2Ti 3
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

This description doesn't seem to me to be limited to the first century tribulation until 70 A.D. It describes the possibility of any Christian at any period of this age before the age to come. No postmillenial fantasies necessary.
Now, that doesn't mean that an (optimistic) amillennial scheme means "failure." On the contrary, Satan is bound from "deceiving the nations" and cannot prevent the spread of the gospel to all nations. It's just that he will try (and fail) harder and harder as the gospel spreads. Things can get harder for Christians as they become more successful.
However, as a non-theonomist I do not interpret the success of the gospel in terms of transforming geopolitical systems but simply of redeeming souls from every nation.

 

[anerlogios]

It seems that the climate of the world influences such eschatological views. When things are going well, there seems to be a push towards the postmillennial view. When things seem to be getting worse (as most think they are), there's the push towards amillenniallism and premillennialism.

 

[reformed_baptist]

I had a dream that I was talking with an angel who gave me the secrets to theology in a number of areas.

Immediately I have two concerns about that statement:

1) How do you know this was a genuine spiritual experience rather then a figment of your imagination, 1 John 4:1 demands that you 'test the spirits'.

2) How this secret knowledge differ from Gnosticism?

In the area of eschatology he said that postmillennialism was the correct interpretation and the others the incorrect ones.

Considering the many varieties and nuances within the post millennial camp I trust your angel was a little more specific then just this!

For example Gentry, Bahnsen and Rushdoony are all reconstructionist in their Post Millennialism whereas Warfield followed the Puritan form known today as 'revivalist' - then within those two main camps there are varying degrees of optimism, also there are differing views in regards to the term millennium.

It's been a while since I studied this eschatology so besides Ken Gentry who holds to It and believes it correct?

If an Angel has revealed it to you what does it matter and why would you need to read read or study on the subject at all?

 

[evangelist6589]

Immediately I have two concerns about that statement:

1) How do you know this was a genuine spiritual experience rather then a figment of your imagination, 1 John 4:1 demands that you 'test the spirits'.

2) How this secret knowledge differ from Gnosticism?



Considering the many varieties and nuances within the post millennial camp I trust your angel was a little more specific then just this!

For example Gentry, Bahnsen and Rushdoony are all reconstructionist in their Post Millennialism whereas Warfield followed the Puritan form known today as 'revivalist' - then within those two main camps there are varying degrees of optimism, also there are differing views in regards to the term millennium.



If an Angel has revealed it to you what does it matter and why would you need to read read or study on the subject at all?

I never once said this was new revelation as that would be false doctrine. I simply stated I had a dream.

 

[Jope]

I never once said this was new revelation as that would be false doctrine. I simply stated I had a dream.

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[kyredneck]

On the contrary, Satan is bound from "deceiving the nations" and cannot prevent the spread of the gospel to all nations.

Agree! (or at least agree that he WAS bound, I suspect he may be loosed already and the camp of the saints is currently being compassed about, but no matter, fire will come down from heaven and consume the adversaries )

 

[reformed_baptist]

I never once said this was new revelation as that would be false doctrine. I simply stated I had a dream.

No you most certainly did not simply state that you had a dream, rather you clearly stated:

I had a dream that I was talking with an angel who gave me the secrets to theology in a number of areas. In the area of eschatology he said that postmillennialism was the correct interpretation and the others the incorrect ones.

However returning to the rest of my post, which particular nuance of post millennial did this Angel direct you to?

 

[kyredneck]

I do not interpret the success of the gospel in terms of transforming geopolitical systems

One Solitary Life

Here is a man who was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. He grew up in another village. He worked in a carpenter shop until He was thirty. Then for three years He was an itinerant preacher.

He never owned a home. He never wrote a book. He never held an office. He never had a family. He never went to college. He never put His foot inside a big city. He never traveled two hundred miles from the place He was born. He never did one of the things that usually accompany greatness. He had no credentials but Himself...

While still a young man, the tide of popular opinion turned against him. His friends ran away. One of them denied Him. He was turned over to His enemies. He went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed upon a cross between two thieves. While He was dying His executioners gambled for the only piece of property He had on earth – His coat. When He was dead, He was laid in a borrowed grave through the pity of a friend.

Nineteen long centuries have come and gone, and today He is a centerpiece of the human race and leader of the column of progress.

I am far within the mark when I say that all the armies that ever marched, all the navies that were ever built; all the parliaments that ever sat and all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully as has that one solitary life.


Astounding geo-political change occurred when this ancient prophecy became reality:

27 God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9

...as with the realization of this prophecy:

44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Dan 2

 

[evangelist6589]

No you most certainly did not simply state that you had a dream, rather you clearly stated:



However returning to the rest of my post, which particular nuance of post millennial did this Angel direct you to?

Just postmillennialism.