A very good book. It didn't convert me to postmil either, but it made me look at a lot of things and rethink them.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Postmillennialism
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
- Status
He may be.
Hey Brother KY!Agree! (or at least agree that he WAS bound, I suspect he may be loosed already and the camp of the saints is currently being compassed about, but no matter, fire will come down from heaven and consume the adversaries)
While I do not hold the post-mil view, I do find it interesting (and appreciate the concentration it has on the church functioning as the church). That said, you made a comment that has sparked my interest. When, in history, do you hold that Satan was bound?
I'm sure this is true, but I don't think it should be.
We have a sovereign almighty God! Why should we suppose that He is restrained by circumstances? The Puritans were optimistic. When they prayed, 'Thy kingdom come' they were not thinking of Christ's Return, but God bringing revival. Jonathan Edwards took the view that God's usual way of expanding His kingdom is through revival. He cited Genesis 4:26 as being the very first revival. They looked at O.T. texts like Isaiah 54 and Psalm 60 and saw the promise of revival in them. Here's my take on Psalm 60: Moab is my Washpot
My church joins with others across Britain in regular prayer for revival. Just about every revival in history can be traced back to a small group of people praying, sometimes for years. How is it with you, brethren? 'You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive because you ask amiss' (James 4:2-3). God promises, 'I will also let the house of Israel inquire of Me to do this for them: I will increase their men like a flock' (Ezekiel 36:37).
First, answer this:
When in history did the serpent bruise the heel of the seed of the woman? How was it manifested in this realm? IOW, whodunit?
So am I legalist for having this dream?
Hello Aresman,2Ti 3
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
This description doesn't seem to me to be limited to the first century tribulation until 70 A.D. It describes the possibility of any Christian at any period of this age before the age to come. No postmillenial fantasies necessary.
Now, that doesn't mean that an (optimistic) amillennial scheme means "failure." On the contrary, Satan is bound from "deceiving the nations" and cannot prevent the spread of the gospel to all nations. It's just that he will try (and fail) harder and harder as the gospel spreads. Things can get harder for Christians as they become more successful.
However, as a non-theonomist I do not interpret the success of the gospel in terms of transforming geopolitical systems but simply of redeeming souls from every nation.
I find myself in between these two positions at the present time...
Which part of this do you consider postmillennial fantasy?
[QUOTE
- Note by Ken Gentry: In response to the editor of Journey magazine several years ago regarding the differences between postmillennialism and “optimistic amillennialism,” Dr. Greg Bahnsen presented a brief presentation. His article was titled “Confidence About the Earthly Triumph of Christ’s Kingdom” and appeared in the March-April 1988 edition of Journey. I believe you will appreciate this article’s succinctness in presenting the postmillennial hope. Bahnsen’s article follows:
Do we expect what Christ expects to take place in history? Is His expectation that all nations and all enemies shall be won over to Him which is an expectation based on the Father’s promise, nothing more than wishful thinking? No Bible-believing Christian would say that. However, many would postpone the fulfillment of Christ’s expectation to after His second coming — despite the “realized” nature of the preceding Bible passages (their clear application to this present age). Premillennialists postpone Christ’s triumph to a future millennial age, while amillenialists postpone it to the future new heavens and earth. Postmillennialists, as genuinely “realized millennialists,” expect Christ’s subduing of his enemies to be accomplished before the second coming. So did Paul. “For He [Christ] must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet; the last enemy that shall be abolished is death” (1 Cor. 15:25-26) — pointing to the resurrection of believers “at His coming,” which brings “the end” (vv. 23-24). All other enemies will be put under Christ’s feet, therefore, prior to His coming (prior to the end).
This is the postmillennial confidence we should all share. It is not enough to be an “Optimistic amil” who believes that widespread triumph for Christ’s kingdom is possible and who personally hopes it will take place. The Bible message about Christ’s kingdom is stronger and more definite than that. “Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from henceforth and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this” (Isa. 9:7). God’s kingdom shall grow from a stone to be a mountain that fills the earth, and “the dream is certain” (Dan. 2:35, 44-45). The confidence of the prophets was that all nations would flow into the church to be nurtured by God’s word, live by His just standards and learn peace (Isa. 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3). “In His days shall the righteous flourish, and abundance of peace until the moon be no more. He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth … And His enemies shall lick the dust … All nations shall serve Him” (Ps. 72:7-11). “All the ends of the earth shall turn unto Jehovah” (Ps. 22:27), and then shall “the earth be full of the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9).
How shall this be accomplished? The New Testament clearly points us to the enabling presence of Christ with the church, the preaching of the gospel (Matt. 28:18-20), and the powerful work of the Pentecostal Spirit (e.g., Acts 2:32-41). With such resources the kingdom of Christ will be characterized by surprising growth (Matt. 13:31-33). Christ shall draw all men to Himself (John 12:32) and “lead justice unto victory” (Matt. 12:20). The preaching of the gospel — the sword from Christ’s mouth — shall utterly conquer the nations (Rev. 19:11-16). The fullness of the Gentiles shall be brought in, provoking even the Jews — all Israel — to be received again and saved, signifying veritable “life from the dead” for the world (Rom. 11:11-15, 25-26). We should conclude, then, that Christ has set before His believing and persevering church “a door opened which none can shut” — consequently, that even the most antagonistic opponents shall bow down, and Christ’s church shall enjoy with Him authority over the nations (Rev. 3:7-9; 2:25-27; 20:4). That is not just a vain hope, but the promise of God.
Read more at OPTIMISTIC AMILLENNIALISM? - Postmillennialism]
Jeep Dragon,
Hello JD...
This is where it gets interesting...
yes this has to be addressed
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
]
Hello JD...
yes....
This is where it gets interesting...
Good point...
yes this has to be addressedlets see....
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
]
The postmill view often has to fight off caricatures of it;
(On Postmillennialism)
"Postmillennialism has not only been discarded in this century on clearly unorthodox grounds; it has also been made a straw man so that modern advocates of the other schools of interpretation can easily knock it down and get on to other interests.
The worst possible interpretation is put on postmillennial tenets, or the eccentric aspect of some postmillennial writer’s position is set forth as representing the basic school of thought.
As instances of these procedures we can note the following. Hal Lindsey says that postmillennialists believe in the inherent goodness of man, and Walvoord says that the position could not resist the trend toward liberalism. He also accuses it of not seeing the kingdom as consummated by the Second Advent.
William E. Cox claims that postmillennialism is characterized by a literal interpretation of Revelation 20.
Adams portrays the postmillennialist as unable to conceive of the millennium as coextensive with the church age or as a present reality, for he (according to Adams) must see it as exclusively future – a golden age just around the corner.
Finally, it is popularly thought and taught that postmillennialism maintains that there is an unbroken progression toward righteousness in history – that the world is perceptibly getting better and better all the time – until a utopian age is reached.
Geerhardus Vos portrays the postmillennialist as looking for “ideal perfection” when “every individual” will be converted, and some will become “sinless individuals.”
All of the above claims are simply inaccurate.
The Calvinist, Loraine Boettner, certainly does not believe in man’s inherent goodness,
and B. B. Warfield can hardly be accused of not resisting liberalism.
That a. A. Hodge did not see the second coming of Christ as the great day of consummation is preposterous.
J. Marcellus Kik and many others insisted on a figurative interpretation of Revelation 20.
Certain sixteenth- and seventeenth-century Dutch theologians, as well as Jonathan Edwards and E. W. Hengstenberg, were all postmillennialists who saw the millennium as coeval with the interadventual age (in which there would be progressive growth for the church in numbers and influence).
Charles Hodge, Snowden, and Boettner were all postmillennialists who explained that the growth of Christ’s kingdom in the world suffers periodic crises, and Boetner has especially stressed the fact that it grows by imperceptible degrees over a long period.
Finally, anyone who thinks of postmillennialism as a utopian position misunderstands one or the other in their historically essential principles. Indeed, a chapter in Boettner’s book, The Millennium, is entitled, “The Millennium not a Perfect or Sinless State,” contrary to the misrepresentations of Vos.
Nobody has ever propounded, in the name of evangelical postmillennialism, what Vos claimed (least of all his Princeton colleagues or predecessors). Therefore, the recent opponents of postmillennialism have not been fair to its genuine distinctives, but rather have misrepresented it as a general category of interpretation. This surely provides no firm ground for rejecting the position." (The Prima Facie Acceptability of Postmillennialism)
(On Postmillennialism)
"Postmillennialism has not only been discarded in this century on clearly unorthodox grounds; it has also been made a straw man so that modern advocates of the other schools of interpretation can easily knock it down and get on to other interests.
The worst possible interpretation is put on postmillennial tenets, or the eccentric aspect of some postmillennial writer’s position is set forth as representing the basic school of thought.
As instances of these procedures we can note the following. Hal Lindsey says that postmillennialists believe in the inherent goodness of man, and Walvoord says that the position could not resist the trend toward liberalism. He also accuses it of not seeing the kingdom as consummated by the Second Advent.
William E. Cox claims that postmillennialism is characterized by a literal interpretation of Revelation 20.
Adams portrays the postmillennialist as unable to conceive of the millennium as coextensive with the church age or as a present reality, for he (according to Adams) must see it as exclusively future – a golden age just around the corner.
Finally, it is popularly thought and taught that postmillennialism maintains that there is an unbroken progression toward righteousness in history – that the world is perceptibly getting better and better all the time – until a utopian age is reached.
Geerhardus Vos portrays the postmillennialist as looking for “ideal perfection” when “every individual” will be converted, and some will become “sinless individuals.”
All of the above claims are simply inaccurate.
The Calvinist, Loraine Boettner, certainly does not believe in man’s inherent goodness,
and B. B. Warfield can hardly be accused of not resisting liberalism.
That a. A. Hodge did not see the second coming of Christ as the great day of consummation is preposterous.
J. Marcellus Kik and many others insisted on a figurative interpretation of Revelation 20.
Certain sixteenth- and seventeenth-century Dutch theologians, as well as Jonathan Edwards and E. W. Hengstenberg, were all postmillennialists who saw the millennium as coeval with the interadventual age (in which there would be progressive growth for the church in numbers and influence).
Charles Hodge, Snowden, and Boettner were all postmillennialists who explained that the growth of Christ’s kingdom in the world suffers periodic crises, and Boetner has especially stressed the fact that it grows by imperceptible degrees over a long period.
Finally, anyone who thinks of postmillennialism as a utopian position misunderstands one or the other in their historically essential principles. Indeed, a chapter in Boettner’s book, The Millennium, is entitled, “The Millennium not a Perfect or Sinless State,” contrary to the misrepresentations of Vos.
Nobody has ever propounded, in the name of evangelical postmillennialism, what Vos claimed (least of all his Princeton colleagues or predecessors). Therefore, the recent opponents of postmillennialism have not been fair to its genuine distinctives, but rather have misrepresented it as a general category of interpretation. This surely provides no firm ground for rejecting the position." (The Prima Facie Acceptability of Postmillennialism)
And here again;Bahnsen
Misguided Ground for Rejecting Postmillennialism
It must be observed that postmillennialism lost favor (and today remains held in disfavor) with conservative theologians for manifestly unorthodox and insufficient reasons. Extra-biblical reasoning, as well as lazy or poor scholarship, has intruded itself into Christian discussions of eschatology.
Newspaper Exegesis
Alva J. McClain says of postmillennialism: “This optimistic theory of human progress had much of its own way for the half-century ending in World War I of 1914. After that the foundations were badly shaken; prop after prop went down, until today the whole theory is under attack from every side. Devout Postmillennialism has virtually disappeared.”[2]
J. Barton Payne’s massive Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy mentions postmillennialism only once, and that merely in a footnote which parenthetically declares “two world wars killed this optimism.”[3]
Merrill F. Unger dismisses postmillennialism in short order, declaring: “This theory, largely disproved by the progress of history, is practically a dead issue.”[4]
John F. Walvoord tells us that “In eschatology the trend away from postmillennialism became almost a rout with the advent of World War II” because it forced upon Christians “a realistic appraisal of the decline of the church in power and influence.”[5]
Hence he says that “In the twentieth century the course of history, progress in Biblical studies, and the changing attitude of philosophy arrested its progress and brought about its apparent discard by all schools of theology. Postmillennialism is not a current issue in millenarianism.”[6]
He accuses it of failing to fit the facts of current history, of being unrealistic, and of being outmoded and out of step.[7]
Jay Adams recognizes postmillennialism as a “dead issue” with conservative scholars, since it predicts a golden age while the world awaits momentary destruction; he agrees with the above authors that the “advent of two World Wars . . . virtually rang the death knell upon conservative postmillennialism.”[8]
Adams apparently offers his own opinion that Boettner’s long-range postmillennialism “is too difficult to grant when Christians must face the fact of hydrogen bombs in the hands of depraved humanity.”[9]
Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth captures well the attitude of these previous writers, stating that “there used to be” a group called “postmillennialists” who were greatly disheartened by World War I and virtually wiped out by World War II. Lindsey’s (poorly researched) conclusion is this: “No self-respecting scholar who looks at the world conditions and the accelerating decline of Christian influence today is a ‘postmillennialist.’”[10]
I think Jay Adams swung over to postmill after being quoted here....
Misguided Ground for Rejecting Postmillennialism
It must be observed that postmillennialism lost favor (and today remains held in disfavor) with conservative theologians for manifestly unorthodox and insufficient reasons. Extra-biblical reasoning, as well as lazy or poor scholarship, has intruded itself into Christian discussions of eschatology.
Newspaper Exegesis
Alva J. McClain says of postmillennialism: “This optimistic theory of human progress had much of its own way for the half-century ending in World War I of 1914. After that the foundations were badly shaken; prop after prop went down, until today the whole theory is under attack from every side. Devout Postmillennialism has virtually disappeared.”[2]
J. Barton Payne’s massive Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy mentions postmillennialism only once, and that merely in a footnote which parenthetically declares “two world wars killed this optimism.”[3]
Merrill F. Unger dismisses postmillennialism in short order, declaring: “This theory, largely disproved by the progress of history, is practically a dead issue.”[4]
John F. Walvoord tells us that “In eschatology the trend away from postmillennialism became almost a rout with the advent of World War II” because it forced upon Christians “a realistic appraisal of the decline of the church in power and influence.”[5]
Hence he says that “In the twentieth century the course of history, progress in Biblical studies, and the changing attitude of philosophy arrested its progress and brought about its apparent discard by all schools of theology. Postmillennialism is not a current issue in millenarianism.”[6]
He accuses it of failing to fit the facts of current history, of being unrealistic, and of being outmoded and out of step.[7]
Jay Adams recognizes postmillennialism as a “dead issue” with conservative scholars, since it predicts a golden age while the world awaits momentary destruction; he agrees with the above authors that the “advent of two World Wars . . . virtually rang the death knell upon conservative postmillennialism.”[8]
Adams apparently offers his own opinion that Boettner’s long-range postmillennialism “is too difficult to grant when Christians must face the fact of hydrogen bombs in the hands of depraved humanity.”[9]
Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth captures well the attitude of these previous writers, stating that “there used to be” a group called “postmillennialists” who were greatly disheartened by World War I and virtually wiped out by World War II. Lindsey’s (poorly researched) conclusion is this: “No self-respecting scholar who looks at the world conditions and the accelerating decline of Christian influence today is a ‘postmillennialist.’”[10]
I think Jay Adams swung over to postmill after being quoted here....
You write or steal from others way to much. Try condensing your posts.
No, that would be mystic
(kidding). I have no clue where you got here. I reply to Y1 that Sproul may be a partial pretierist and you interpret that to be an accusation that your dreams make you a legalist? Is that the Mikes talking?
I believe when death was conquered and men were freed from sin and death. This was manifested with the Resurrection.
I post for those who want to learn more.
I think you did not understand the question. When/how was Gen 3:15 fulfilled?
I understand Genesis 3:15 within the same redemptive plan as the Abrahamic covenant, and it is fulfilled as this covenant is fulfilled. So I lean towards the Resurrection looking forward to the New Creation. One could, I suppose, go back to the "kingdom that is but is not yet" and indicate the ministry of Christ (perhaps even the Incarnation). But I believe it proper to take the fuller over the part - Genesis 3:15 was fulfilled with the Resurrection as death and sin are conquered, but the fuller fulfillment is yet to come.
That said, I'm not arguing against your position or trying to assert my view, but instead am asking what post-mills believe to be that period of time Satan was bound. What time in history was Satan bound and when will he be (or when was he) loosed?
(It's not a trick question. I'm trying to understand your view point more clearly).
"In the present time there are those who, misapprehending the prediction that the Gospel of the Kingdom must be preached in all the world (Matt. 24:14), assert that Christ cannot return until the missionary enterprise has reached to all the inhabited earth. They do not recognize that the passage in question is found in a context belonging to the future Great Tribulation, and that because of the unending cycle of birth and death there could not be a set time in this dispensation when the missionary endeavor would be complete" (Lewis Chafer, systematic theology, V:282).
Thought I would pop this quote here and see what you postmillennials think. I think Chafer has got a sound point against postmillennialism here: how could this whole world really be preached the gospel given the current birth and death cycle and large population?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thought I would pop this quote here and see what you postmillennials think. I think Chafer has got a sound point against postmillennialism here: how could this whole world really be preached the gospel given the current birth and death cycle and large population?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Who is going to read all that on a phone?
I do not believe that the context of Matthew 24:14 is the Dispensational 'Great Tribulation,' and I don't believe that many (any?) Postmils actually believe that every single person alive has to hear the Gospel before Christ can come. That's just silly! The verse is perfectly clear. The Gospel must be preached 'in all the world' not to every single person in the world. People come and go, but the world remains around the same size.
With radio and TV digital technology, of course, the Gospel is coming to people in Saudi Arabia, North Korea etc. where a missionary finds it very difficult to go.
- Status