convicted1
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I have seen them used, having worked in the health care field for 11+ years. But, I do not believe in them. Only God can heal, no matter how many prayed over a "prayer cloth".
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Prayer clothes?
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I remember seeing them being pushed by certain televangelists in the 60's and 70's as a means for healing. 'And you can have one too if you just include your Love Gift with your request!'
WestminsterMan
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WestminsterMan
New Member
I'm sorry but that is Roman Catholic gobbledy-gook.
No, the early church had MANY things occur that no longer do but prayer is a powerful thing and can travel through space and time. No need for man-made items to carry it. The very Spirit of God does.
Yet God Himself used material objects in the healing process. Spittle and dirt, or water... remember? Now, no one in their right mind believes that those material objects in and of themselves had any power to do anything - it is the power of God that does the healing and He chooses how and under what circumstances healings take place - or whether they do at all. Jesus didn't need to use material "things" in the healing process. As God, He could just have spoken it as He did on numerous other occasions. Yet, in some instances, He chose to use material objects anyway. Hmmm...
WM
convicted1
Guest
Sounds like they were trying to heal their bank accounts, huh?
But not in every case did He use something physical and at no time was His presence not there when He healed with a material. He never sent His robe to another town to heal instead of Himself and when the disciples were sent out, He never gave them any material item to bring with them to give them power. As a matter of fact, He told them to not carry anything!
When Jesus healed with mud, was the place of that mud now being sold as the place to come to be healed? Did they bottle the mud to heal and send it places? Nope - it had nothing to do with the material item but God. When we say that we have an item to facilitate prayer, then that item becomes an idol. How would people feel if it were tossed into a fire and burned?? That would really speak volumes.
When one speaks of the divinity of Christ, he speaks of the deity of Christ.
In that respect only God is divine. Only Christ is divine or has deity. That is what the word literally means.
It is true that the word has taken on other meanings if that is what you are getting at, just as the word "church" has many meanings, only one of which is Biblical. "There are many scholarly "divines" in this world. That may be grammatically correct and socially acceptable nowadays, but Scripturally wrong. Only Christ is divine.
And the Hindus will give you the exact same reasoning when the bow down before their elephant god, "Ganesh." They don't worship the idol, that thing made of wood, but the god that it represents. There is no difference between what you just described and Hinduism. The Hindus use the same argument. The only religion that does worship actual objects are animists. But Hindus and Buddhists worship the god behind the idol, or what the idol represents, just like the Catholic does. Why not become a Hindu instead? They have more variety to choose from.
convicted1
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WestminsterMan
New Member
In God's standing, yes. When I got saved he justified me, sanctified me, blotted out my sins (past, present and future) and made me perfectly righteous in his sight. When God looks down upon me, he does not see me, but the blood of Jesus that covers me; his robe of righteousness. I am perfect in my standing before him.
In practical Christian living, no. Like all people I sin.
However, what is the meaning of Mat.5:48.
The word "perfect" is an Old English word meaning "complete." I am complete in Christ. It also has the idea of maturity. We need to strive to reach maturity in Christ, just like that perfect ripened fruit. God is complete in every way; perfect. That is our goal--to strive toward that perfection, toward maturity in Christ, the fulness of the fruit of the Spirit. We may never attain it in this life, but it is a goal that the Lord has but there for us.
WestminsterMan
New Member
Yet, He did use material objects in the process. I wonder why He did that annsni... He didn’t need to you know.
Go back and read my post. I said that it is only by the power of God that healing can take place. But again... He did use material objects in the healing process.
No - that's what YOU say. I have a kneeler that I use to facilitate prayer. By your definition that makes me an idolater. With all due respect, that position seems like a skewed view of reality.
We'll, I wouldn't like it but, I would simply procure another kneeler.
WM
WestminsterMan
New Member
I agree that word meaning have changed or had many usages over time... such as the word "pray" for example.
Scripturally wrong? Hmmmm... I believe that the 1611 KJV 1st edition titles the book of Revelation thusly: "The Revelation of Saint John the DIVINE".
I would think that the translators knew the biblical significance of the word "divine" wouldn't you?
WM
Note the words "even as"! Has God EVER sinned even ONCE? Hence, to be perfect "even as" God "IS" perfect demands a righteous life that has never once sinned even in one point! It demands a heart whose intent for all that is chosen, said, done to be all "for the glory of God."
This is what Paul means when he said, "all have sinned and COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD." God looks upon the heart and the root of the heart is its INTENT or MOTIVE behind all of its desires/lusts.
The "perfect" EVEN AS God perfect is the only kind of righteousness acceptable to God to enter heaven (Mt. 5:20).
Where are you going to get that kind of perfection TS? Not from your sacramental salvation as that necessarily includes the presence of sin in your own life.
Not from your life from birth to death because there can be found SIN in that life and but the perfection God demands is a life NO SIN can be found, not one because it is perfect "EVEN AS" God "IS" perfect! So where can you find it?
It is found in SUBSTITUTIONARY righteousness provided in the life of Christ alone that is LEGALLY imputed to the "ungodly" through faith in Christ alone!
It is found in REGENERATIVE righteousness that is imparted in the INWARD MAN, created in true holiness and righteousness or the regenrated spirit of man.
It is NOT found in the working out of progressive righteousness in our own personal life. However, our own progressive righteousness distinguishes us from the lost man who has NO RIGHTEOUSNESS whatsoever in God's sight and thus progressive and incompleted righteosness identifies us as "righteous" and distinguishes from the lost as the unrighteous. It distinguishes us as those doing righteousness in God's sight from those who cannot do righteousness IN GOD'S SIGHT because their hear motive is evil and always evil and everything they do is evil regardless of how moral it may appear (Mt. 7:21-23) or religiously correct.
However, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES cannot possibly obtain what God demands for entrance into heaven (Mt. 5:20; 46). So where are you going to get it TS?
from whence God the Holy Spirit progressively works out in our life a incompleted righteousness that is only brought to perfection in glorification.
I think that if it was a practice for US to use, He'd have sent His disciples out with mud and spit, don't you think?
Not in all instances though.
So you cannot pray without the kneeler?
There are many places in the KJV where the translation is weak. It was colored by the political correctness of High Anglican translators. Only Christ was divine. Only Christ was deity.
It was my understanding that the terms 'High' and 'Low' church only developed in the 19th century with the advent of the Oxford Movement. Maybe you consider the translators to be of a churchmanship that you believe existed at a time when it was not yet expressed in the terms 'High' and 'Low'?
The Anglican church and the Catholic church were very similar at that time. What High Anglican is now was simply Anglican then, so much so that some of the translators (according to some of the history that I have read) were considered to be "low Catholics."
Just this week i watched....cant remember his name. Hes a well know sunday mornin preacher guy. Anyways he talked for a half an hour about a garment called a prayer shaal. As it turned out it was nothing more than an info commercial as he was selling them after his show.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Two problems that I can see with such an idea:
1. The English word "divine" has a number of meanings. As a noun, it has been used from the 13th century to mean a soothsayer, and from the 14th century with the meaning of "an ecclesiastic, a theologian".
2. The titles of the 66 books of the bible are not themselves inspired. Indeed, in the case of Revelation, the book calls itself "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". (see Revelation 1.1)
I am certain that the translators didn't intend their title to mean that in their view, John is God, just as Jesus is God. I would be surprised if that is what you meant, either, but as you were answering DHK's statement: "Only Christ is divine.", I'm not sure what you did mean.
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