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Praying for the dead... ???

Cathode

Well-Known Member
The canon (measuring rod) was established by the end of the first century.

Churches, under the guidance of God Holy Spirit, began collecting the writings of the Apostles before the end of the first century to maintain a record of God’s Word for future generations.

This canon (measuring rod literally) was used by churches to judge the reliability of documents they came later as to whether they were consistent with God’s Word as written by God’s chosen vessels from OT and NT.

Many books accepted by the RCC today were rejected as scripture by the early church and even by the RCC until the council of Trent since they obviously had no answer for the many errors in doctrine that contradicted what was accepted as scripture.

Canonisity was entirely Catholic Tradition. The Catholic Church didn’t refer to the Jews who rejected the Lord and rejected Christianity altogether. The Catholic Church looked to it’s own Fathers in succession to the Apostles, those books that were in continuous use from the Apostles.

“For the blessed apostle Paul himself, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes only by name to seven Churches in the following order–to the Corinthians afirst…there is a second to the Corinthians and to the Thessalonians, yet one Church is recognized as being spread over the entire world…Howbeit to Philemon one, to Titus one, and to Timothy two were put in writing…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

“[It has been decided] that nothing except the Canonical Scriptures should be read in the church under the name of the Divine Scriptures. But the Canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the Prophets, Isaias, Jeremias, Daniel, Ezechiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. Moreover, of the New Testament: Four books of the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles one book, thirteen epistles of Paul the Apostle, one of the same to the Hebrews, two of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, the Apocalypse of John.” Council of Carthage III, Canon 47 (A.D. 397).

Their solution was to add books that supported their false doctrine and pretend they were scripture all along.

Unfortunately for the RCC, people know how to read and do their own research, which leads the RCC to demand people stop thinking for themselves and just trust the church leadership that has plagued the history of Christianity with murder, mayhem, child s:x abuse and mutilation, false doctrine, false hope, false assurance, Mary worship, Saint worship, angel worship, idols, and false Pope after false Pope that does not speak for God

You cannot get scripture right. You cannot get history right. You are blind to truth and the embrace the lies of men.

Bible alone Protestantism has no ability to declare anything true or false, since among themselves they can not agree on anything and have no authority.

These had nothing to do with the Bible. Catholics are prebible Christianity, our Church was founded by Christ on Peter and the Apostles.

Protestantism was founded by rebellious men, each on their own human opinions of Scripture in conflict with one another.
And none of them had anything to do with the Bible. And are all traditions of men.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
I do realize what the RCC claims. It is simply untrue.

The earliest churches collected letters and Gospels (as instructed by Paul to share) and what we know as Holy Bible was established by the end of the 1st century, hundreds of years before the Bishop at Rome made his power grab.

The RCC has no authority from God and certainly cannot rewrite history notwithstanding its attempts to do so.

Peace to you
 
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Cathode

Well-Known Member
I do realize what the RCC claims. It is simply untrue.

The earliest churches collected letters and Gospels (as instructed by Paul to share) and what we know as Holy Bible was established by the end of the 1st century, hundreds of years before the Bishop at Rome made his power grab.

The RCC has no authority from God and certainly cannot rewrite history notwithstanding its attempts to do so.

Peace to you

Catholics aren’t the ones that rewrite history.

Catholicism is original christianity.
 
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David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Catholics aren’t the ones that rewrite history.

Catholicism is original christianity.
No, the original Christians were called "Christians", and the first churches were called names like "the church at Ephesus," "the church at Thessalonica," and "the church at Rome." There was no Roman Catholicism, and no pope.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Catholics aren’t the ones that rewrite history.

Catholicism is original christianity.
Literally rewriting history in your claim that the RCC doesn’t rewrite history.

The RCC began when the Bishop at Rome forged a will, claiming Emperor Constantine gave authority over the Roman army, and thus the empire, to him, in the mid 4th century.

This began the murder spree of Pipe after Pope to cleanse anyone that challenged their authority, putting the Christian church in the dark ages.

That is history. It can only be denied by those who are blind to truth or, knowing the truth, seek to rewrite history to protect the power of the RCC.

Peace to you
 

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Literally rewriting history in your claim that the RCC doesn’t rewrite history.

The RCC began when the Bishop at Rome forged a will, claiming Emperor Constantine gave authority over the Roman army, and thus the empire, to him, in the mid 4th century.

This began the murder spree of Pipe after Pope to cleanse anyone that challenged their authority, putting the Christian church in the dark ages.

That is history. It can only be denied by those who are blind to truth or, knowing the truth, seek to rewrite history to protect the power of the RCC.

Peace to you

Biggest bunch of hogwash. The writings of the Early Church totally contradict this accusation. These accusations are similar to the debunked 'Trail Of Blood' nonsense. Trail Of Blood: Debunking A False Church History
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Biggest bunch of hogwash. The writings of the Early Church totally contradict this accusation. These accusations are similar to the debunked 'Trail Of Blood' nonsense. Trail Of Blood: Debunking A False Church History
No, what I have stated has nothing to do with “Trail of Blood”, which I do not believe.

However, the RCC uses similar arguments used by Trail Blood f Blood in that they claim an unbroken succession from the First century (Peter and John the Baptizer). Most likely, the author of Trail of Blood copied the RCC church by claiming groups and individuals that were not really associated with either.

The RCC began in the mid fourth century when the Bishop at Rome forged a will claiming Emperor Constantine’s gave everything to him. That is historic fact.

I understand the RCC claims everything written by early church leaders, but there is no connection to the changes in doctrine and practice introduced at these mush later dates.

They claim Christ speaks through their Pope and authorized the changes, but that is self serving nonsense that has resulted in numerous conflicts in scripture and practice.

Peace to you
 

shodan

Member
Site Supporter
Hi there!

I do not (!) believe that anyone should pray for dead people... a man dies and after that the judgement. But is there a "clear" verse which can be "used" to support this? A clear verse that tells us that we are not supposed to do this?
Here is a short post with the exposition of this verse. Key point: what we do NOT know does not negate what we DO know. Baptism for the Dead?
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What was forbidden is summoning the dead, necromancy.

The saints in heaven aren’t dead, they are eternally alive in God. And yes they can pray for us, just as any saint on earth can pray for us.

Praying for the dead was a Jewish practice as we see in Maccabees.

“It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins.” 2 Macc 12:46

Sacrifices were offered in the Temple for the battle slain soldiers that wore pagan amulets, that they be loosed from those sins.



Every time you pray to God for others, you break from this idea.

The mediatorship of Christ referred to here is Christ’s unique mediation on the Cross. Otherwise it would be forbidden to even say the Lord’s Prayer.
I went to the graves of my relatives yesterday, in a coal mining town that I was born in to place Christmas wreathes on the graves. For the first time in my life, I did not pray for them, honored them yes of course, but pray for them or ask for their help with my temporal life…. No, they have passed on and I’m sure they are all in a better place.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
I went to the graves of my relatives yesterday, in a coal mining town that I was born in to place Christmas wreathes on the graves. For the first time in my life, I did not pray for them, honored them yes of course, but pray for them or ask for their help with my temporal life…. No, they have passed on and I’m sure they are all in a better place.

You can pray for them and they can help you with their prayers. The same Spirit that makes us one in Christ, makes us one with them in Christ.
There is no separation for those that are one in Christ.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
They don’t need my prayers… their in heaven

In case some are in purgatory, we should always pray for them.

I know purgatory exists, it’s not something I was just told about.

The ones that suffer longest there are the ones that have no one to pray for them. They can’t pray for themselves, and it is one of the ultimate acts of charity to pray and fast in reparation for them.

They have to remain there until the smallest reparations are made to God’s Justice. It’s a very hard reality but a Just one.

We need to remember these Holy Souls every day in our prayers, it’s extremely important.

The Mercy we show them is the Mercy we will receive ourselves.

Ever since the Protestant rebellion, Protestants in purgatory have had no one to pray for them apart from Catholics.
That’s why we always especially pray for the souls in Purgatory that are forgotten and have no one to pray for them.

Hours in purgatory is like years, and reparations are only made by suffering and what is for them a long period of time.
Reparation can be made easily on Earth, but those in purgatory can not give back what they stole, or mitigate the harm they caused others.

This is when our prayers and fasting can stand in for them, lighten their sentence and even clear their debts of restitution.

Jesus cleared their debts for forgiveness, but their debt of restitution must be paid.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
In case some are in purgatory, we should always pray for them.

I know purgatory exists, it’s not something I was just told about.

The ones that suffer longest there are the ones that have no one to pray for them. They can’t pray for themselves, and it is one of the ultimate acts of charity to pray and fast in reparation for them.

They have to remain there until the smallest reparations are made to God’s Justice. It’s a very hard reality but a Just one.

We need to remember these Holy Souls every day in our prayers, it’s extremely important.

The Mercy we show them is the Mercy we will receive ourselves.

Ever since the Protestant rebellion, Protestants in purgatory have had no one to pray for them apart from Catholics.
That’s why we always especially pray for the souls in Purgatory that are forgotten and have no one to pray for them.

Hours in purgatory is like years, and reparations are only made by suffering and what is for them a long period of time.
Reparation can be made easily on Earth, but those in purgatory can not give back what they stole, or mitigate the harm they caused others.

This is when our prayers and fasting can stand in for them, lighten their sentence and even clear their debts of restitution.

Jesus cleared their debts for forgiveness, but their debt of restitution must be paid.
Where in God's Word are we taught that God punishes people He has saved, people whose sins Christ died and shed His blood to forgive, suffer after death, and that the amount they suffer will depend upon whether Christians on earth pray for them?
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Acts of Love are very powerful at elevating the souls in purgatory. No matter how small.
No detail of this life here is unimportant, everything is important, everything is strictly accounted on the other side. There is no loose paperwork there, no debt to God or man is unaccounted.

Neglects and smallest omissions of Love are accounted. Every word, every act, every omission.

If we pay for the neglects of Love that people have incurred, by acts of Love here, Mercy will be shown us in turn.

Love is bother much more than giving money.

Neglectful parents will throw money at their children rather than spend time with them.

Love bothers, not bribes.

Bother is measured in time, ordeal and personal suffering and that’s what purgatory is measured in for this reason.

When your mechanic doesn’t bother doing a good and thorough job fixing your car and as a consequence you break down or have a deadly accident on the road, his neglect to you and others will accounted for spiritually.

The whole chain of consequences from his lack of Love and care for others piles up. He might realise this before he dies and asks for and be given forgiveness, but he has not made restitution.

Purgatory is where he can make restitution, otherwise hell is his only other option. Purgatory is a great Mercy therefore.

Purgatory perfects in Love, it shows the Soul what its lack of Love has done, all its ongoing consequences and harm done to others.

The accounting is strict, nothing is unrecorded.

However many lives our negligence in Love has effected, we will be held to account for it.

This is why men with great power can accumulate vast sentences in purgatory, because of so many lives effected by their decisions.

This is why all our day must be offered in and with Jesus, our work and all actions and words, so it is He that does in us and neglects nothing. Only with Jesus can we truely Love and live in Love.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Where in God's Word are we taught that God punishes people He has saved, people whose sins Christ died and shed His blood to forgive, suffer after death, and that the amount they suffer will depend upon whether Christians on earth pray for them?

Matt 5:23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

We must settle our debts to others here before Judgement otherwise we pay the hard way in purgatory.
There is no getting out of Hell, but there is a getting out of Purgatory, the harm and injustice our lack of Love has incurred must be paid in restitution.

Mrs. Fitch will forgive the boys that broke her window with the cricket ball, but restitution must be paid for the cost of that broken window.

Someone might cause you spinal injuries and paralysis by their neglect and carelessness, and you work hard to finally forgive them, is it then just that no restitution be paid to you?
You can’t work, you live in life long pain and suffering, a permanently diminished life and massive ongoing financial obligations.

They may be forgiven, but justice demands that restitution be made.

This is why Purgatory is a Mercy as much as it is a Justice, the Soul lives the suffering and hard consequences of others they harmed. In Purgatory they live the suffering and harm they caused through and through, as if it happened to them. Then they can finally get out.

Jesus settles all scores and debts no matter that many escape their debts in this world, they don’t escape the Perfect Judge, no one escapes His Judgement on anything.

When we then pay these debts of restitution for these Souls by our acts Love and prayers, they will stand witness when our accounts are opened.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In case some are in purgatory, we should always pray for them.

I know purgatory exists, it’s not something I was just told about.

The ones that suffer longest there are the ones that have no one to pray for them. They can’t pray for themselves, and it is one of the ultimate acts of charity to pray and fast in reparation for them.

They have to remain there until the smallest reparations are made to God’s Justice. It’s a very hard reality but a Just one.

We need to remember these Holy Souls every day in our prayers, it’s extremely important.

The Mercy we show them is the Mercy we will receive ourselves.

Ever since the Protestant rebellion, Protestants in purgatory have had no one to pray for them apart from Catholics.
That’s why we always especially pray for the souls in Purgatory that are forgotten and have no one to pray for them.

Hours in purgatory is like years, and reparations are only made by suffering and what is for them a long period of time.
Reparation can be made easily on Earth, but those in purgatory can not give back what they stole, or mitigate the harm they caused others.

This is when our prayers and fasting can stand in for them, lighten their sentence and even clear their debts of restitution.

Jesus cleared their debts for forgiveness, but their debt of restitution must be paid.
Please provide specific

scripture
for your claims
 
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Cathode

Well-Known Member
Please provide specific

scripture
for your claims
Look at the Traditional interpretation of the Scriptures that Fathers refer to.

“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.” Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).

“For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.” Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

“If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not–provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever–no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works.” Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).

“And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they ‘shall not inherit the kingdom of God,’ unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say ‘suitable,’ I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom,” and to the latter, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'” Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421).

The Fathers understand these Scriptures as it pertains to Purgatory, which has always been the Catholic and Apostolic understanding of Scripture handed down from the Apostles.

Besides this the evidence of Scripture and the Fathers, I know Purgatory is real, it’s no joke. Purgatory is real.

Restitution here is much easier, the restitutions we make by prayer and fasting for those in Purgatory go a long way to mitigate their sufferings, and the duration of their sufferings.

They live in the presence of the harm they did, in the light of the Perfection of what Jesus perfectly lived life in us would have done. That’s the best I can describe it.

Jesus is not just Judge, He is the model by which all are judged.

In Jesus Divinity, He lived all and each our lives perfectly before Father. Hard to understand I know.

The fire that purges us is the fire of Jesus Perfect Love.

Better to pay restitution in this life by Love, than by Raw Exposure to Perfect Love in the next, there is no mitigating shield of that light when soul is out of the body.

We must thank God for all the sufferings of our life, these sufferings endured with patience, love, trust and thanksgiving make restitution for our negligence in Love. The sufferings allowed us by God are a great love and kindness, as painful as they are.

God will not diminish His Light to suit us, we must be made fit for His Light.

Purgatory is where the stubble burned, people are saved but only as through fire.

Better to do our Purgatory here in this world though.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I know purgatory exists, it’s not something I was just told about.

I only have one question, "How can you know that purgatory exists?"
If you were not told about it then you must have experienced it and since you are still living that is not the case.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
I only have one question, "How can you know that purgatory exists?"
If you were not told about it then you must have experienced it and since you are still living that is not the case.

I was shown the spiritual reality of it in prayer, for me it’s no longer a matter of believing what I was told on faith.

Purgatory is real, Baptism is salvific, these are spiritual realities I was shown.

If the scriptures don’t lead us into the spiritual worlds realities, then what is their point.

Are we to lead a purely carnal earthbound Christianity, blind to the spiritual realities. Sometimes I think people have completely missed the whole point.

Would you warn someone more about hazard if you merely heard about it on the radio, or you saw it first hand.

You are still culpable if you don’t share in faith what you heard on the radio and someone gets hurt. You are even more culpable if you don’t share what you know directly.

Purgatory is real. I don’t care who scoffs and sneers it is reality.
 
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