• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Praying to the dead - conjuring the dead

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by BrianT:
No, what is condemned is conjuring and necromancy, which is summoning the dead for information. I already discussed this, and examples in Psalms and Revelation where prayers are made that don't go directly to God. Care to comment on them?
Deu.18:10-12
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

The Israelites were forbidden to have any contact with anyone who claimed to communicate with the unsen world. Eight means of communication with the sirit world are given in this passage. They are called abominations by God. They include:
"one who practices witchcraft"--a witch or a warlock.
"a soothsayer"--a seer, a false prophet.
"one who interprets omens"--a palm-reader, a fortune-teller, an astrologer.
"a sorcerer"--a witch-doctor.
"one who conjures spells"--a wizard.
"a medium"--spirit medium.
"a spiritist"--a seance leader.
"one who calls up the dead"--necromancer.
Some of these "professions" overlap.

Tragically this nearly 3,400 year-old prohibition is just as much needed in "enlightened" modern times as it was long ago. Henry G. Bosch writes:
Satanism, demons, and the occult are dark sinister realities, not tricks. One of the signs that we are nearing the close of this age is the wide-spread interest in witchcraft, astrology, and other form os the occult.
...Thousands consult their horoscompe each day, attend seances, or seek to communicate with deceased loved ones. There is also a great interest in Satanism and demons. The Bible repeatedly warns against such practices (lev.19:31; 20:27; 2Chron.33:6; Jer.10:2; Gal.5:19,20).
How urgent and up-to-date are the warnings of Scripture! Let's not play around with something that could become a kiss of death.
--from the Believer's Bible Commentary.

Commnunicating with the dead in any form is wrong. It is communication with that unseen world. The only person that we are to communicate with is God alone. Any other communication is wrong. Do not be like the Shintoist in Japan who prays to his ancestors to give them honor. He also presents offerings to them. They are dead. What good will their prayers and offerings do? What good will your prayers to your so-called saints do. They also are dead. Jesus Christ alone has risen from the dead. He alone is our intercessor. "There is one God and one mediator between man and God, the Lord Jesus Christ."
DHK
 

thessalonian

New Member
"Commnunicating with the dead IN ANY FORM is wrong. It is communication with that unseen world. "

Gee, then I guess Jesus was wrong at the transfiguration with Moses and Elijah.

Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, TALKING with Jesus.

Oh, I know, Elijah didn't die. But we know that the devil and the angel fought over Moses body so that one won't get you totally off the hook. Looks like by your definition Jesus was a sinner. (Jude 1:9).

And I can hear the words in Jerusalem after the resurection. "DON'T SAY A WORD TO ANY OF THEM. It's a sin."


Matt 27:53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Blessings
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by thessalonian:
"Commnunicating with the dead IN ANY FORM is wrong. It is communication with that unseen world. "

Gee, then I guess Jesus was wrong at the transfiguration with Moses and Elijah.

Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, TALKING with Jesus.

Oh, I know, Elijah didn't die. But we know that the devil and the angel fought over Moses body so that one won't get you totally off the hook. Looks like by your definition Jesus was a sinner. (Jude 1:9).

And I can hear the words in Jerusalem after the resurection. "DON'T SAY A WORD TO ANY OF THEM. It's a sin."


Matt 27:53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Blessings
Sarcasm will do you no good here Thessalonian. Do you have a serious question to ask? Or are you here just to mock God's Word? If the latter you stand on very dangerous ground. God will not be mocked.

Miracles in Christ day were common, as the Scriptures testify. They testified of the deity of Christ. Jesus said if you don't believe me, then believe me for the very works sake. He raised Lazarus from the dead also. I suppose you can make a mockery out of that if you want to also. The miracle was a demonstration of His deity--a miracle that no mere mortal could do. It has nothing to do with speaking with the dead.

Likewise the transfiguration. It was a miraculous event that gave the disciples (Peter, James and John) a glimpse into that which was yet to come. Your question/snide remark, or whatever it was is akin to questioning the authority of Jehovah allowing Moses to see the hinder part of the glory of God. God can do that which he chooses to do that is within His naure to do. He chose to reveal His glorified nature to three of His disciples, as well as the transfigured nature of Elijah and Moses. The disciples never prayed to Elijah or Moses, never communicated to them either. It was only Christ that they had communication with. The whole scene was to glorify Christ, as the voice out of Heaven demonstrated: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

There was a miraculous event that is described in Mat.27:52,53. What became of these ones the Bible does not say. It also does not say that anyone oommunicated with them, prayed to them in any way. The only thing one may assume is that they saw that the graves were opened, the bodies were missing, and they appeared to some people. We know nothing after that.
This miraculous event has nothing to do with the subject at hand. It is wrong to pray to the dead.
DHK
 

3AngelsMom

<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Originally posted by thessalonian:
"Commnunicating with the dead IN ANY FORM is wrong. It is communication with that unseen world. "

Gee, then I guess Jesus was wrong at the transfiguration with Moses and Elijah.

Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, TALKING with Jesus.

Oh, I know, Elijah didn't die. But we know that the devil and the angel fought over Moses body so that one won't get you totally off the hook. Looks like by your definition Jesus was a sinner. (Jude 1:9).

And I can hear the words in Jerusalem after the resurection. "DON'T SAY A WORD TO ANY OF THEM. It's a sin."


Matt 27:53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Blessings
Moses was resurrected. Elijah never died.

You aren't going to find a loophole in the Bible for this Thess. Jesus DID NOT SIN. TRYING to talk to the dead, is a sin. It isn't even possible. Those in heaven CANNOT see you or hear you! The saints that have died over the years CANNOT hear you. They ARE DEAD. They do not pray, they do not speak, they have no consciousness, and they CERTAINLY cannot praise God.

THE BIBLE SAYS SO.

God Bless,
Kelly
 

thessalonian

New Member
No DHK, I mocked you. Awfully bold of you to call your words (many of which are not in the Bible) God's holy word. You said "IN ANY FORM". Do you deny these words of yours? I know full well what he transfiguration was and of God's power. How arrogant of you to imply otherwise except by your disdain for me as a Catholic. Your posts exude hatred DHK.

Blessings
 

thessalonian

New Member
"Moses was resurrected."

So Jesus wasn't the first fruits?

" Elijah never died."

I think I said that.


"You aren't going to find a loophole in the Bible for this Thess."

I am not trying to. Just trying to show that DHK's arguements do not add up. Now you come in and argue from a different framework (soul sleep) and that is fine. DHK to my knowledge doesn't believe in it.

"Jesus DID NOT SIN. "

Amen. You are superimposing your SDA beliefs on what I am saying. I wasn't trying to prove he did, unlike you who try to prove that he was not divine till the cows come home. If he was not divine then from the Protestant perspective "all have sinned" would apply to him.

"TRYING to talk to the dead, is a sin. It isn't even possible. Those in heaven CANNOT see you or hear you! The saints that have died over the years CANNOT hear you. They ARE DEAD. They do not pray, they do not speak, they have no consciousness, and they CERTAINLY cannot praise God."

I seem to be having trouble finding the verses you just quoted above. Until I do, I feel free to reject your soul sleep dogma that they are based on and believe that our souls live on in Christ in heaven after this life. Therefore they are not dead.

Blessings

THE BIBLE SAYS SO.

God Bless,
Kelly
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by thessalonian:
No DHK, I mocked you. Awfully bold of you to call your words (many of which are not in the Bible) God's holy word. You said "IN ANY FORM". Do you deny these words of yours? I know full well what he transfiguration was and of God's power. How arrogant of you to imply otherwise except by your disdain for me as a Catholic. Your posts exude hatred DHK.

Blessings
I did not take these words in any way personally. They didn't affect me as a person:

Oh, I know, Elijah didn't die. But we know that the devil and the angel fought over Moses body so that one won't get you totally off the hook. Looks like by your definition Jesus was a sinner. (Jude 1:9).

And I can hear the words in Jerusalem after the resurection. "DON'T SAY A WORD TO ANY OF THEM. It's a sin."
But to suggest that Christ is a sinner is pure mockery if not blasphemy. The tone in this post is one of sarcasm and mockery. However it is not me that is being mocked: it is Christ and His Word. I was having a serious discussion up until that point.
DHK
 

3AngelsMom

<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Originally posted by thessalonian:
[QB] "Moses was resurrected."

So Jesus wasn't the first fruits?
Ask Lazarus, he might know. Or perhaps the daughter of Jarius? Uh, maybe the other COUNTLESS people who were raised from the dead BEFORE Jesus was. The Bible said He is the first fruit from the dead. Does that mean He was the first person to ever be raised from the dead? Moses is most likely in heaven in the same fashion that Elijah is. Considering that Moses was sleeping awaiting the resurrection and he was awakened to be taken to heaven, He most likely was taken the same way Elijah was. Body and all. That's what Michael (Jesus) and Satan were arguing about.

"You aren't going to find a loophole in the Bible for this Thess."

I am not trying to. Just trying to show that DHK's arguements do not add up.
I agree. You want to know why? He wants to 'have his cake and eat it too'. He wants to tell you that you are wrong for praying to the Saints in heaven, because they died, but he doesn't want to tell you that you are wrong for believing that they are there in the first place. The problem is solved. You are praying to NO ONE. Therefore you aren't really sinning, just wasting your time. Just pray to God. The dead people aren't in heaven yet, and they cannot hear you. When those prayers are answered it is because God sees your ignorance, and winks, and sees the sincerity of your heart and honors your prayers to them, as if they were His own. But He is jealous, and He is calling you to repent.
Now you come in and argue from a different framework (soul sleep) and that is fine. DHK to my knowledge doesn't believe in it.
Nope, and that is why his argument makes NO SENSE whatsoever. Here it is, in a nutshell. "Dead people aren't really dead, they are in heaven, but don't pray to them, because they are dead and that's necromancy." Did I get that straight? :confused:

"Jesus DID NOT SIN. "

Amen. You are superimposing your SDA beliefs on what I am saying.
I'm sorry, but the only measure that I know to use when confronted with doctrine is the truth.
I wasn't trying to prove he did, unlike you who try to prove that he was not divine till the cows come home.
Divine? Diety? God? Do you think those words all mean the same thing? Jesus is divine. So is Michael. ;)
If he was not divine then from the Protestant perspective "all have sinned" would apply to him.
Don't go there Thess.

"TRYING to talk to the dead, is a sin. It isn't even possible. Those in heaven CANNOT see you or hear you! The saints that have died over the years CANNOT hear you. They ARE DEAD. They do not pray, they do not speak, they have no consciousness, and they CERTAINLY cannot praise God."

I seem to be having trouble finding the verses you just quoted above. Until I do, I feel free to reject your soul sleep dogma that they are based on and believe that our souls live on in Christ in heaven after this life. Therefore they are not dead.
Give me a break. Don't you have a concordance?

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

I have an extensive study that I have done on Soul Sleep, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. In laymans terms. If you'd like to see it, let me know.

God Bless,
Kelly
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Neither Rev 5 or Rev 8 show "spirits offering prayers" -


Brian T said --
The 24 elders are tree stumps?
Why are the prayers not going *directly* to God from humans still living on earth?
#1.The 25 elders are "not identified" as dead - as having 'been dead', as 'ever having been human'.

#2. There is no text saying that anyone was praying "TO the ELDERS".

#3. ALL the RC prayers to the dead are prayers being said TO the person that died - never does the RC show someone praying TO the Father but then having some dead person intercept it. Rather the RC argument is FOR praying TO the dead person that they "claim" will then pray THEIR prayers TO God.

Nothing about the 24 elders fits the RC scenario.


Bob said
Amazing - EVEN though the text says the prayers were going TO GOD and not TO any "spirit" - YET the RC view is "SEE prayers are not going TO GOD".


Brian T said --
Yes, to God, but not directly. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

The non-RC model is that Jesus is the "ONE mediator between God and man".

The RC model is to pray TO the dead rather than THROUGH the dead. (And then they claim that those who have died are not "the DEAD in Christ" of 1Thess4.)

Nothing about this scenario fits the RC model.

Bob said
We have been given NO example in all of scripture of any saint praying to anyone but God Alone.


Brian T said -- Scripture repeatedly tells us to pray for each other
True the Bible tells US - on EARTH - to pray FOR each other - but not TO each other.

The RC practice (once again) is to pray TO the "DEAD in Christ" of 1Thess4.


There is no way to twist texts that speak of the living on earth (who have not died and are NOT the Dead in Christ) - into "commune with the dead and pray to them asking them to in turn pray for you".

EVEN your own statement shows that instead of praying THROUGH those alive on earth - we communicate with them and ask THEM to pray FOR us. We do not pray THROUGH them to God.

Yet your Rev argument is that we should pray THROUGH our fellow Christian. Something EVEN the RCC does not allow.

Brian T asks -- Why is "praying" to a saint living in heaven to pray for you any different fundamentally then "praying" to a saint living on earth to pray for you?
#1. There is NO example in scripture of ANYONE praying TO the "DEAD in Christ" (1Thess 4:13-16).

#2. NO NT author calls the "DEAD in Christ" - the "ALIVE LIVING in heaven in Christ".

#3. The examples you show DO NOT show anyone praying TO anyone in heaven but God. You claim that they someone they are not praying TO is intercepting their prayers and passing them ON to God - but even THAT is not a case of the 24 elders THEMSELVES praying TO God. It is the Prayers OF THE SAINTS going TO GOD as smoke in Rev 8 NOT the prayers OF the Angel or of the (unnidentified) Elders.

Bob said

Obviously - NONE of those beings in heaven are dead NOR are they between death and resurrection NOR are they even human NOR are they being "prayed to" any more than the HILLS that David addresses in song are "prayed to".


</font>
Brian T said --So the "hosts" don't included believers in heaven?
No the SONGS of David sung to hills and trees do not mean "the hills are dead people - or the DEAD in Christ". The hosts of heaven "are never said to be dead people OR the dead in Christ" and NONE of them are being "prayed THROUGH" in a prayer that is directed TO God.

Nothing here - fits your model, nor shows Trees, stars, hills to be "dead people".

Bob said --

What a hoot! Nowhere in scripture does it say "go ahead and bring up the dead - contact the dead but NOT for the purpose of gaining information".



Brian T asks --
Do you not understand the fundamental difference between prayer and conjuring? Or are you just trying to be antagonistic?
The scriptures tell us NOT to conjure the dead as we see in the case of Satan's servant trying to do with Samuel - "bringing up the dead".

The RC argument is that THESE instances are REAL cases of bringing up the dead. But then the RC argument self-conflicts stating that ONLY the BODY is dead - so then this is a case of bringing up the CORPSE???

But if bringing up the dead - conjuring the dead is to bring up their SPIRIT - then the spirit of the dead - is rightfully termed "the DEAD" and so then "Conjuring up the dead" is to communicate with and try to bring up the spirit of the dead.

No escape on this one.

In Christ,

Bob
 
Originally posted by BobRyan:
But if bringing up the dead - conjuring the dead is to bring up their SPIRIT - then the spirit of the dead - is rightfully termed "the DEAD" and so then "Conjuring up the dead" is to communicate with and try to bring up the spirit of the dead.

No escape on this one.

In Christ,

Bob [/QB]
"Conjuring up the dead is to communicate with and try to bring up the spirit of the dead."

This seems to be heart of your arguement.

Am I correct?

Ok then, is prayer to a Saint, let's just say Mary the Blessed Mother, asking for her intercession to Jesus on our behalf, communicating with her to try and bring up her spirit?

Is that what you are saying?
 

thessalonian

New Member
It's funny. Any protestant who agrees with Bob Ryan on this thread implicitly is agreeing with his dogma of soul sleep which if foundational to his line of reasoning. He calls praying to a saint conjuring them up because he thinks that they are not with Christ but are in the grave asleep. To be absent from the body is not to be present with the Lord according to Bob. Of course soul sleep is false.
 
Originally posted by thessalonian:
It's funny. Any protestant who agrees with Bob Ryan on this thread implicitly is agreeing with his dogma of soul sleep which if foundational to his line of reasoning. He calls praying to a saint conjuring them up because he thinks that they are not with Christ but are in the grave asleep. To be absent from the body is not to be present with the Lord according to Bob. Of course soul sleep is false.
Thanks, Thess.

Thats the missing piece to the puzzle.

I was trying to figure out where he was getting all this stuff about bringing up dead bodies and conjuring up the dead. It's all just so whacky.

No Catholic that I know expects any Saint or Angel to speak back or to appear before us.

Ron
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Nope, and that is why his argument makes NO SENSE whatsoever. Here it is, in a nutshell. "Dead people aren't really dead, they are in heaven, but don't pray to them, because they are dead and that's necromancy." Did I get that straight? :confused:
Kelly,
"Dead" always refers to the body. You know as well as I, that when a person dies, the body is dead. It is taken and buried, and starts the process of decay. It is dead. What you don't believe is the spirit is alive. The spirit of the saved person is alive with Christ in Heaven. To be absent from the body is to present with the Lord. Yes "dead people are really dead," i.e. their bodies, but not their spirits.
When Samuel went to the witch of Endor to conjure up the "dead" it was the "live" spirit of Samuel that came, not the "dead"
DHK
 

Paul of Eugene

New Member
Originally posted by DHK:
So according to what you have just explained Samuel would not be considered a saint or a believer. Saul, by means of a medium, wanted to speak to Samuel. Samuel did appear to him. How would you account for this? [/QB]
Hey, DHK, don't worry about Samuel. He didn't do any conjuring. He was conjurred.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
Hey, DHK, don't worry about Samuel. He didn't do any conjuring. He was conjurred.
Yes, The circumstances there were highly unusual, and it was only by God's grace that God allowed it to happen at all. Even the witch was suprised by it.
 

3AngelsMom

<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Nope, and that is why his argument makes NO SENSE whatsoever. Here it is, in a nutshell. "Dead people aren't really dead, they are in heaven, but don't pray to them, because they are dead and that's necromancy." Did I get that straight? :confused:
Kelly,
"Dead" always refers to the body. You know as well as I, that when a person dies, the body is dead. It is taken and buried, and starts the process of decay. It is dead. What you don't believe is the spirit is alive. The spirit of the saved person is alive with Christ in Heaven. To be absent from the body is to present with the Lord. Yes "dead people are really dead," i.e. their bodies, but not their spirits.
When Samuel went to the witch of Endor to conjure up the "dead" it was the "live" spirit of Samuel that came, not the "dead"
DHK
</font>[/QUOTE]Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The SOUL that sins shall die.

Do you sin?

Your soul DIES.

You are a soul, DHK, when you die, the spirit, that God gave your body to animate you will go back to God, and the dust which makes up your body will return to the earth.

This is what the Bible says.

Show me a verse that says 'death is always talking about a body'.

Jesus isn't coming back for a 'body', He is coming back for PEOPLE. Souls.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV)
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (note that it doesn't say come back and be reinserted into their bodies)

John 5:28 (KJV)
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Your doctrine doesn't make any sense. There are people who are dead that Jesus is coming for. If they were already in heaven, why on earth would He be COMING for them??????

God Bless,
Kelly
 

BrianT

New Member
Just a thought: "soul" doesn't always mean that nebulous, intangible spiritual identity. It sometimes means simply the physical life. The Hebrew word is "nephesh" and is used often just as physical life, even of animals. Even in the words of Gen 1:21, ("And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind..."), the word translated as "creatures" is "nephesh" - the same word translated "soul" in Ezek 18:4 that you are using in your argument. Thus, unless you can show that the passage is NOT talking only about the physical life, it doesn't carry much weight.

As for Christ "reinserting" into resurrected bodies, consider the verse immediately prior to the passage you quoted. It says "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Here we see Jesus bringing with him those that have died, even though their bodies stayed on earth. He brings them *with* him, and yet also resurrects their bodies which were not with him, but are with us.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You have made your point Kelly, as Brian has made his. My statement should have read "Normally death refers to the body," instead of using an all inclusive word as "all." Brian is also right in that soul is not always confined to that nebulous definition that approaces that of "spirit."

you poor soul! If you could just see that truth.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
What is death? Separation. When the body is separated from the spirit that is death. The body is put in the ground and begins a decaying process. The spirit (if of a believer) goes to be with the Lord in Heaven. This is what most people think of death. The death of the body. Normally the body is referenced to when speaking of death. Jesus spoke of the body of Lazarus when he spoke of his death. It was his body that rose from the dead. The spirit was still alive.

There are three types of death in the Bible:
1. Physical death: separation of the body from the spirit as described above in James 2:26.

2. Spiritual death: separation spiritually from God. Example--Eph.2:1
Eph.2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
--The unsaved are spiritually separated from God. When saved God makes them alive in Christ so that they are no more apart from God. They have been reconciled through the blood of Christ. They were once alienated by sin. Separated spiritually.

3. Eternal separation. Rom. 6:23: The wages of sin is death--eternal death. Some day the unsaved will day and stand at the Great White Throne Judgement and be eternally separated from God--tormented, day and night forever and ever (Rev.20:10,15).

Death means separation.
DHK
 

3AngelsMom

<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Originally posted by BrianT:
[QB] Just a thought: "soul" doesn't always mean that nebulous, intangible spiritual identity. It sometimes means simply the physical life. The Hebrew word is "nephesh" and is used often just as physical life, even of animals. Even in the words of Gen 1:21, ("And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind..."), the word translated as "creatures" is "nephesh" - the same word translated "soul" in Ezek 18:4 that you are using in your argument. Thus, unless you can show that the passage is NOT talking only about the physical life, it doesn't carry much weight.
I agree with what you said about a soul. Problem is, in order for anyone to prove that a person goes to heaven when they die, you must first prove that they have something that can go to heaven in the first place. When God made Adam, He gave the exact formula, that ALL mankind is made by. He took clay (or elements of the earth) and BREATHED on it, the Breath of Life, or the 'ruach'. The combination of dust and breath make a living soul, a 'nephesh' as you have noted. That nephesh is the same for ALL the creatures that God has made! The Bible goes on further though to tell us what the reverse of that process is, and tells us that when a 'man' dies, the dust (elements of the earth) return to the earth and the spirit (ruach) return to God who gave it. NOW, unless you want to assert that ALL men go to heaven, that passage DOES NOT say that a PERSON goes to heaven when they die, but rather the spirit that animated them, the breath of life from God's own nostrils is what goes back to God.

As for Christ "reinserting" into resurrected bodies, consider the verse immediately prior to the passage you quoted. It says "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Here we see Jesus bringing with him those that have died, even though their bodies stayed on earth. He brings them *with* him, and yet also resurrects their bodies which were not with him, but are with us.
Do you plan on spending eternity in the body you are in now? I would hope not, and since I can assume you don't think that I must ask you what you think Jesus is going to resurrect? If YOU are already in heaven, WHY would He resurrect your old decaying dead body? There is a reason. Because you are in it. You are not a mixture of spirit and body, but a mixture of clay and breath. When that breath leaves you, you are clay again, and no longer a living soul. The soul that sins, dies. It is a natural process due to sin. We die. When Jesus returns those who were faithful to Him will be given LIFE again. Those who were not will await the second resurrection. WHY would Jesus come to the earth, and take those who are ALREADY in heaven to their old bodies and put them back, only to turn around and give them new bodies? That just doesn't make sense.

Here is what makes sense. Jesus is coming for the DEAD in Christ. Those who died, and are waiting, in an unconscious sleep for His return. He will 'bring' those with Him to the Living in Christ because He is going to raise them from the dead before the living are caught up! It is simple. He is going to raise the dead first, just as the passage says, for we who are alive will not PREVENT those who are 'asleep'. NOW, unless you think you are going to be sleeping in heaven, that word is referring to the dead in Christ.

Not the living in heaven.

God Bless,
Kelly
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Thess --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's funny. Any protestant who agrees with Bob Ryan on this thread implicitly is agreeing with his dogma of soul sleep which if foundational to his line of reasoning. He calls praying to a saint conjuring them up because he thinks that they are not with Christ but are in the grave asleep. To be absent from the body is not to be present with the Lord according to Bob. Of course soul sleep is false.
The First "error" in what Thess has said - is that the RC position has been that that it is NOT the spirit of the dead that "you must not conjur" but rather the "corpse of the dead" because ONLY the corpse IS dead - conjuring up their spirit is NOT conjuring up the dead or speaking to the dead - because the dead are really not dead. This is the RC way of getting out of the texts that FORBID communication with the dead. They "turn it in to" a restriction against "talking to decaying corpses" since that is the "only part that is dead".


The Second error in his statement is that we must "not notice" that 1 Thess 4 actually SAYS the "Dead in Christ" have "fallen asleep".

Or that Christ says "Our Friend Lazaurs Sleeps, I go that I may Wake HIM" John 11.


BTW -

NT texts that one must "remember not to read" when using Thess's logic above, so we can "pretend" that only Bobryan says these things.


Short takes to see if the NT really does speak about death as “sleep” instead of being “Alive in Christ”.

1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".

1Thess 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.&gt;&gt;

John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''[/b]
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

1Cor 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lazarus

If it is the “Person that is Dead, that is the Friend of Jesus and that is In the Tomb is the one that is Asleep” instead of the Person being “Alive in Christ” at death -- then we would expect to see..

John 11
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair,whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "" Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.''

11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''[/b]
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,
15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.''
16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days.
18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off;
19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother.
20 Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed at the house.
21 Martha then said to Jesus, "" Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
22 ""Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.''
23 Jesus said to her, ""Your brother will rise again.''
24 Martha said to Him, "" I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.''
25 Jesus said to her, "" I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?''

But if it is only the Corpse of the person that is dead, and that is in the tomb and that is the friend of Jesus while the Person of Lazarus becomes “Alive in Christ” at death by contrast -- then we would expect to see,,

John 11
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair,whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "" Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.''

11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend is alive in Christ in haven but the Body of Lazarus, has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken IT out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if IT has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus’ body is dead,
15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.''
16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
17 So when Jesus came, He found that IT had already been in the tomb four days.
18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off;
19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother’s Body.
20 Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed at the house.
21 Martha then said to Jesus, "" Lord, if You had been here, my brother’s Body would not have died, and my brother would not be in heaven Alive in Christ now.
22 ""Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.''
23 Jesus said to her, ""Your brother’s Body will rise again.''
24 Martha said to Him, "" I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.''
25 Jesus said to her, "" I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will have his body live even if his Body dies while he is alive in Christ in heaven,
26 and everyone Lives forever but those who live and believe in Me will have Bodies that never stay dead. Do you believe this?''


1Thess 4:
Again – here is 1Thess 4 as it would be written if the PERSON is the one sleeping in death instead of the Person becoming “Alive in Christ” at death.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.&gt;&gt;

Again – lets “rewrite” this so that the person does not sleep – only their decaying flesh is “sleeping” while the Person becomes “Alive in Christ” at death by contrast.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are Alive in Christ in heave while their corpses are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those whose are alive in Christ and yet have corpses that have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who have bodies that are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who are in heaven alive in Christ and yet have decayed corpses that have fallen asleep on earth. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead corpses in Christ will rise first.&gt;&gt;

=================================
How would 1 Cor 15 be written IF it was the Person that sleeps in death instead of the Person being “Alive in Christ” at death?
1Cor 15:16
For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
35 But someone will say, ""How are the dead raised? And WITH what kind of body do they come?''

Now let’s Rewrite this to see how it would be written to show that only the bodies are “asleep” while the Person becomes “Alive in Christ” at death by contrast.
For if the dead bodies of the Alive in Christ are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those who are alive in Christ in heaven at death will have their decaying corpses (asleep in Christ) perish instead of merely sleeping.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those Alive in Christ who have decaying corpses that are asleep.
35 But someone will say, ""How are the dead bodies raised? And WITH what kind of body do the dead bodies come?''

The “really fascinating” part of this is that 1Cor 15 DOES have a segment that IS just focused on the BODY of the saints. So Finally we have a text that does NOT need to be rewritten so that it applies Only to the body – the decaying corpse of the Person. Here it is…
1Cor 15
35 But someone will say, ""How are the dead raised? And [/b]With what kind of body do they come[/b]?''
36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless IT dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives IT a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. IT is sown a perishable body, IT is raised an imperishable body;
43 IT is sown in dishonor,IT is raised in glory; ITt is sown in weakness, IT is raised in power;
44 IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, ""The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.'' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55 "" O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?''
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;


In all cases Sleep is being done by “the person” not their decaying dead corpse as it returns to dust – not by their body at all.
In Christ,

Bob
 
Top