Praying to the dead - conjuring the dead

Actually, yes I do. Christ will resurrect my body (not give me a new body unrelated to my current body), and it will be changed so that it is glorified and incorruptible (1 Cor 15). Just like Jesus, who was the first-born of the dead, who still had his nailprints in his hands - he didn't get a new body either, but a glorified, incorruptible one.

You previously talked about the spirit leaving the body. At the resurrection, the spirit returns.

I am both.

Because it's NOT "new" bodies, it's the old bodies made glorified and incorruptible.

No, that does not make sense, because you are completely changing the meaning of "bring with" (dictionaries are wonderful things!). I believe Christ will *bring* with him those that have died, and resurrected their bodies.

Not if only our bodies are sleeping, and are spirits go to heaven. If only our bodies are sleeping, and our spirits go to heaven, the passage of Christ *bringing* people with him while at the same time resurrecting their bodies makes perfect sense.

Think about this: consider the parable (a parable is not a fable!) of the rich man and Lazarus. The are conscious after their bodies have died. Now ask yourself: Why would Jesus, who was certainly wise enough to have instead told a parable where the events were not only doctrinally true but also describe a real event, tell a parable that contained lies and a scenario that was exactly opposite to what actually happens??? Remember, a parable is not a fable, they are very different. A fable is a made up story, often containing impossibilities (talking animals, etc.) to make a point. A parable is a story that is contains events that are both possible and literal, to make a point. I simply cannot understand how those who believe in soul sleep, who if they were present when Jesus told this parable, would have said "Jesus, that's a lie, people aren't conscious after their bodies die".

 

Even though you have repeatedly made this slanderous accusation, you have so far failed to cite a single teaching of the Church which states (or even implies) that anyone is permitted to "conjure up" anything - body or spirit.

So far a lot of words - very little substance.

 

The altar in my old Catholic Church has the bone of a "saint" in it. A bone from a dead guy, but no-one could tell me who it was. But it is there, and the priest told me it protects the altar. Now if that ain't asking the dead for protection, what is it ? Hocus-pocus Christianity.

Ignore the double speak, folks. Catholics do pray to the dead, asking for protection and mercy.

"Hail Mary, full of grace..."

"O St. Joseph whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the Throne of God, I place in you all my interests and desires. O St. Joseph do assist me by your powerful intercession and obtain for me from your Divine Son all spiritual blessings through Jesus Christ, Our Lord; so that having engaged here below your Heavenly power I may offer my Thanksgiving and Homage to the most Loving of Fathers. O St. Joseph, I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms. I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart. Press him in my name and kiss His fine Head for me, and ask Him to return the Kiss when I draw my dying breath. St. Joseph, Patron of departing souls, pray for us. Amen"

"St. Catherine,
Most blessed and favored patron saint,
Thou who sought the truth with perseverance,
loved the truth in humility,
taught the truth in charity,
and defended the truth with courage,
pray for us.
Obtain for us the grace to persevere in truth,
to be a light in the darkness of the times in which we live,
and to convey to others,
both in our written words and in our actions,
the responsibility, wisdom, and knowledge
to proclaim the truths of our holy Faith
as proclaimed by the Church.
O holy virgin and bride of Christ,
whose letters inspired, guided, and led the Church
to renewal and transformation,
obtain too for us the grace to live the truth,
the patience to endure the trials and hardships,
to carry our Cross in the spirit of prayer and self denial,
and to defend the Church in its hour of crucifixion.
We ask these in Christ's name, Amen."

And also, prayer to angels...

"O Blessed Archangel Gabriel, we beseech thee, do thou intercede for us at the throne of divine Mercy in our present necessities, that as thou didst announce to Mary the mystery of the Incarnation, so through thy prayers and patronage in heaven we may obtain the benefits of the same, and sing the praise of God forever in the land of the living. Amen."


When Jesus taught his disciples how to pray, why did he leave out dead folks, and angels ? How could he do that to us ? Bad Jesus, misleading us poor Baptists.

Catholics pray to dead people. Some will at least admit it.

 

But keep in mind, Catholic tradition tells that one cannot trust that Christ's sacrifice finished everything. Prayers to the dead, like Mary, Joseph, Micheal, and others are only asking them to do what Jesus already completed. God is fully satisfied with Christ's work on the cross, and if you are too, than you can't possibly feel good about prayers to dead people. You can only pray to them if you don't believe "it is finished".

 

Bro.Curtis, do you pray to God now that it is finished? Why???

 

Um... because it's Christ's teaching ?

Our Father, who art in heaven.....

Where does Christ tell us to pray to ANYONE else ?

 

Curtis, if in deed a priest actually said that to you, he was wrong.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The teaching of the Catholic Church with regard to the veneration of relics is summed up in a decree of the Council of Trent (Sess. XXV), which enjoins on bishops and other pastors to instruct their flocks that "the holy bodies of holy martyrs and of others now living with Christ—which bodies were the living members of Christ and 'the temple of the Holy Ghost' (I Cor., vi, 19) and which are by Him to be raised to eternal life and to be glorified are to be venerated by the faithful, for through these [bodies] many benefits are bestowed by God on men, so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of the saints, or that these and other sacred monuments are uselessly honoured by the faithful, and that the places dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited with the view of obtaining their aid, are wholly to be condemned, as the Church has already long since condemned, and also now condemns them.""

 

Thanx, Ron. My childhood memories of my Mom's old church are still pretty vivid, and that's what I remember. Also, not trying to be nasty or change the subject, why wasn't the RCC protected from this error, no matter when it occurred ?

Also, why the bone then ? If it does nothing ?

 

And after further quoting Scripture...

"Blessed art thou among women..."

"Blessed is the fruit of thy womb..."

the prayer ends...

"pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

Yea, that looks really really bad doesn't it?

 

What did you tell us before? You attended Catholic Church until age five? four?

What error? A priest saying something (perhaps) that was incorrect?

Come on Curtis, you know better than to ask such a frivilous and silly question. That is not what is meant be infallilbilty.

Tell me, why hasn't the Holy Spirit protected so many on this board from misinterpretting Scripture?

Did you even bother to read what I quoted for you?

The answer is right there.

 

Lets look at that the sola scriptura way...

Jesus was talking to people before His sacrifice was finished. Right?

So it wouldn't apply anymore after His sacrifice was finished.

(I don't think this myself, just offering a sola scriptura type answer)

So Curits, why do you pray to God even though the sacrifice is finished?

It's a legitimate question.

 

Like this one?

Psalm 103:20
Bless the LORD, you His angels, Who excel in strength, who do His word, Heeding the voice of His word.

Catholic pray to Saints. Who is denying it?

This thread says we "conjure" them.

You don't see a difference?

 

Psalm 148:2
Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts!

 

Yes, but wasn't your point that people only pray to "dead people" if they don't believe "it is finished"? If *you* can pray while believing "it is finished", why is it impossible for other people?

 

God alone is worthy of worship. He accepts it because He is God. Jesus never refused worship. The leper came back and worshipped Jesus. Jesus, unlike Peter, accepted the worship of the leper. Jesus always accepted the worship of others. Worship God alone. Pray to God alone. Dead people are not God. Living people are not God. Prayer to any other person, spirit, object, thing, etc. is simple and pure idolatry.
DHK

 

Then you are saying that Psalm 103:20 and Psalm 142:2 are examples of idolatry?

 

Then you are saying that Psalm 103:20 and Psalm 142:2 are examples of idolatry? </font>[/QUOTE]And just who do you think the Psalmist is prayint to other than Jehovah??

 

Here is the definition of pray:

To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
To make a fervent request or entreaty.

v. tr.
To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.

DHK wrote:

Prayer is not soley worship. It is also communication. It is talking to or requesting something from someone. How is it idolatry to request prayers from the saints whether living or dead in body? If I implore you to pray for me then by definition I am praying to you. Is that idolatry then?

God Bless You

John

 

Prayer is not soley worship. It is also communication. It is talking to or requesting something from someone. How is it idolatry to request prayers from the saints whether living or dead in body? If I implore you to pray for me then by definition I am praying to you. Is that idolatry then?

God Bless You

John </font>[/QUOTE]I pray thee, please understand that the word does have more than one meaning. Thus I pray thee that we are speaking of the Biblical and theological concept of prayer as used in the Bible. For this reason my prayer to God is that you would come to a better understanding of this concept.
DHK

 

Well let's see...

Praise Him, all His angels

Praise Him, all His hosts

Bless the Lord, you His angels

Quite obviously, the answer is the angels and hosts.


Bless the Lord, DHK.
Praise Him, DHK.

Who am I speaking to in those sentences, DHK?