Pre Mil, pre-trib (or mid trib) question

[webdog]

Not a eschatology debate thread.

Situation. Rapture occurs. Lost couple conceive a child the day after the rapture, the baby is born, and as an infant or toddler the parents have the child get the mark of the beast.

Where does this toddler go when they die?

Revelation 14:9-10
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

 

[12strings]

Not a eschatology debate thread.

Situation. Rapture occurs. Lost couple conceive a child the day after the rapture, the baby is born, and as an infant or toddler the parents have the child get the mark of the beast.

Where does this toddler go when they die?

Revelation 14:9-10
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Based only on these scriptures, I would say there is not a difficult question here, since the child has ONLY recieved the mark, but NOT "Worshiped the beast." I would say they would go to heaven if they died as a toddler.

Now, if that child lives 7 full years, and begins to become a devoted follower of Satan and the beast...you have to ask at what point does he become culpable...but that's a question for another thread...

 

[DiamondLady]

I actually think the key here is the word "receive". It means to take. This child did not take, accept the mark they were given the mark...it was forced upon them. They had no ability to make that decision and choice on their own.

Being in a world where everyone will be worshipping the beast, save those who rebel and refuse, the child is going to grow up worshipping (just as our Christian children grow up singing Jesus Loves Me, The BIBLE, etc), but the question is whether or not that is true worship...I don't think so as they have no capability of understanding what is true worship from the heart.

This would be a person, I believe, who will inhabit the earth during the millennial reign and will make their choice during those years.

 

[AresMan]

Not a eschatology debate thread.

Situation. Rapture occurs. Lost couple conceive a child the day after the rapture, the baby is born, and as an infant or toddler the parents have the child get the mark of the beast.

Where does this toddler go when they die?

Revelation 14:9-10
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Your hypothetical situation depends on if you believe in paedo-beast-marking or credo-beast-marking.

 

[webdog]

Based only on these scriptures, I would say there is not a difficult question here, since the child has ONLY recieved the mark, but NOT "Worshiped the beast." I would say they would go to heaven if they died as a toddler.

Now, if that child lives 7 full years, and begins to become a devoted follower of Satan and the beast...you have to ask at what point does he become culpable...but that's a question for another thread...

Interesting. Do you believe it is possible to receive the mark and not worship the beast?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

As a follow up question, I would ask if all children under a certain age will be raptured out as part of the church. If all believers will be dead or raptured out when the Spirit is removed, would it not stand to reason that any children "left behind" no longer be covered under grace by the protection of the Spirit?

 

[MB]

Not a eschatology debate thread.

Situation. Rapture occurs. Lost couple conceive a child the day after the rapture, the baby is born, and as an infant or toddler the parents have the child get the mark of the beast.

Where does this toddler go when they die?

Revelation 14:9-10
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Having the mark no matter who it is is a semble of belonging to the beast or worshipping him. There will be some who do not have the mark though when caught they will be killed if they do not change there minds and accept it. Satans force is receive it or die. If you do not have the mark you will probably not live very long anyways because you will not be able to buy or sell. Kind of hard to survive with out food.

I believe the child will have to decide whether to receive it or not at an age where he would understand his choice. Though it would be like choosing to die to refuse it. The way things will be during the tribulation will be much worse than today. Death just may be an attractive option according to what the Bible says it will be like during the second half. I remember reading that men will seek to die and not be able to. That covers every night mare anyone has ever had.

MB

 

[MB]

As a follow up question, I would ask if all children under a certain age will be raptured out as part of the church. If all believers will be dead or raptured out when the Spirit is removed, would it not stand to reason that any children "left behind" no longer be covered under grace by the protection of the Spirit?

With out the Spirit I believe it will be a very difficult life, if life at all for those saved during the trib. I can't imagine what it would be like even having faith with out our comforter. Yet there will be many saved out of the trib most likely during the first half. It will be the second half where things really get rough.
I have faith that our God is not a monster who would enjoy harming little children. If the child is mature enough to understand the gospel and rejects it. Then yes they will have to go through it. If not they will be raptured as will all those who simply cannot understand the gospel because of retardation or some other mental disability.
MB

 

[Greektim]

With out the Spirit I believe it will be a very difficult life, if life at all for those saved during the trib. I can't imagine what it would be like even having faith with out our comforter. Yet there will be many saved out of the trib most likely during the first half. It will be the second half where things really get rough.
I have faith that our God is not a monster who would enjoy harming little children. If the child is mature enough to understand the gospel and rejects it. Then yes they will have to go through it. If not they will be raptured as will all those who simply cannot understand the gospel because of retardation or some other mental disability.
MB

Oh the days of and discussions of dispensationalism. How I miss them

Seriously... you have faith that "God is not a monster who would enjoy harming little children"??? Have you not read about the universal flood destroying the world? Or how about God taking delight in removing the -ites from the promised land for Israel, including children?

Sorry... just a point... don't derail this thread, it is amusing. (I can make fun b/c I was there once asking the same questions)

 

[InTheLight]

Not a eschatology debate thread.

Situation. Rapture occurs. Lost couple conceive a child the day after the rapture, the baby is born, and as an infant or toddler the parents have the child get the mark of the beast.

Where does this toddler go when they die?

I want to be sure I understand the question. Are you saying that the toddler dies sometime during the Trib? If so, in your hypothetical question, how old would this child be upon death?

 

[Grasshopper]

Oh the days of and discussions of dispensationalism. How I miss them

Seriously... you have faith that "God is not a monster who would enjoy harming little children"??? Have you not read about the universal flood destroying the world? Or how about God taking delight in removing the -ites from the promised land for Israel, including children?

Sorry... just a point... don't derail this thread, it is amusing. (I can make fun b/c I was there once asking the same questions)

:laugh: we have alot of work to do.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

With out the Spirit I believe it will be a very difficult life, if life at all for those saved during the trib. I can't imagine what it would be like even having faith with out our comforter. Yet there will be many saved out of the trib most likely during the first half. It will be the second half where things really get rough.
I have faith that our God is not a monster who would enjoy harming little children. If the child is mature enough to understand the gospel and rejects it. Then yes they will have to go through it. If not they will be raptured as will all those who simply cannot understand the gospel because of retardation or some other mental disability.
MB

How can one be saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? The two cannot be separated. By what mechanism will salvation be given apart from the conviction, drawing & sealing of the Spirit. It is the Spirit that draws unbelievers to repentance.
You "have faith that our God is not a monster who would enjoy harming little children"? That is not a Biblically-based answer to my question. How many little children did He command to be slaughtered by the nation of Israel? Biblical doctrine is not based upon our "hope so" faith, but upon the clearly written words of Scripture.
I'm trying to have a realistic understanding of how the "rapture" would work in the real world; not just in the ethereal areas of theology. When I was a teenager, the only answer I could get from the "spiritual" leaders in my life was something along the line of "those are silly questions", "they are foolish & unlearned questions", "do not question those whom God has placed in authority", "we must believe by faith, not by human reasoning", etc. It didn't take long for me to recognize the blind indoctrination for what it was.

So, lets try it again, with specific Biblical references:

Will the unborn be raptured out of their mothers' wombs?
Will all the children & mentally ill who do not understand the gospel be raptured out as part of the Church?
What will be the new mechanism of salvation apart from the New Covenant & indwelling Holy Spirit?
Will children conceived in the "Great Tribulation" be raptured out at conception?
How will the unregenerate understand & believe the gospel without the work of the Holy Spirit?
If people will be/can be saved apart from the Spirit, then why do we need Him for salvation today?

 

[webdog]

I want to be sure I understand the question. Are you saying that the toddler dies sometime during the Trib? If so, in your hypothetical question, how old would this child be upon death?

No older than 7 years old (for obvious reasons), and doesn't even have to die during the Great Tribulation, what is their eternal destination if their parents decided to "mark" them. If they have the mark they may perish during one of the scroll judgments, but are they eternally separated?

 

[webdog]

How can one be saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? The two cannot be separated. By what mechanism will salvation be given apart from the conviction, drawing & sealing of the Spirit. It is the Spirit that draws unbelievers to repentance.
You "have faith that our God is not a monster who would enjoy harming little children"? That is not a Biblically-based answer to my question. How many little children did He command to be slaughtered by the nation of Israel? Biblical doctrine is not based upon our "hope so" faith, but upon the clearly written words of Scripture.
I'm trying to have a realistic understanding of how the "rapture" would work in the real world; not just in the ethereal areas of theology. When I was a teenager, the only answer I could get from the "spiritual" leaders in my life was something along the line of "those are silly questions", "they are foolish & unlearned questions", "do not question those whom God has placed in authority", "we must believe by faith, not by human reasoning", etc. It didn't take long for me to recognize the blind indoctrination for what it was.

So, lets try it again, with specific Biblical references:

Will the unborn be raptured out of their mothers' wombs?
Will all the children & mentally ill who do not understand the gospel be raptured out as part of the Church?
What will be the new mechanism of salvation apart from the New Covenant & indwelling Holy Spirit?
Will children conceived in the "Great Tribulation" be raptured out at conception?
How will the unregenerate understand & believe the gospel without the work of the Holy Spirit?
If people will be/can be saved apart from the Spirit, then why do we need Him for salvation today?

Before there can be a response to this, were OT saints indwelt with the Holy Spirit, or was that unique to the church post pentecost?

 

[InTheLight]

No older than 7 years old (for obvious reasons), and doesn't even have to die during the Great Tribulation,

I don't necessarily believe that the tribulation starts the instant the rapture occurs, although it is likely.

what is their eternal destination if their parents decided to "mark" them. If they have the mark they may perish during one of the scroll judgments, but are they eternally separated?

I think the child is damned, but it's WAY above my pay grade to determine this!

 

[beameup]

Interesting. Do you believe it is possible to receive the mark and not worship the beast?

The "mark" will entail more than just a physical tatoo of some sort.
It is now possible to alter the genetic make-up of a human being.
The hybrids produced in Genesis 6 [nephilim] were no longer pure homo-sapien
and thus not eligible for salvation. Once the genetic makeup is altered
the resultant being is no longer savable because Christ died only
for the seed of Adam, not some genetic mutant.

Gene splicing of non-human dna into human dna is being done at the present time in the lab. Google it yourself.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written
in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. - Rev 13:8
...whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world - Rev 17:8b

 

[DaChaser1]

Interesting. Do you believe it is possible to receive the mark and not worship the beast?

Would say that its the quivalent of being water baptized and yet NOT receiving christ to save you!

Would say that the grace of God would cover and seal off those children under the Age of accountibility, and that it all depends on receiving the mark IF one took it willing or not, if one was making a decision to take him as the Christ...

 

[convicted1]

Before this gets way deep, the mark is placed in their head, and not on their head. This mark isn't a visable tatoo....


Now I am a amil, so I will bow out and let y'all discuss. I just wanted to point this out.

 

[webdog]

The "mark" will entail more than just a physical tatoo of some sort.
It is now possible to alter the genetic make-up of a human being.
The hybrids produced in Genesis 6 [nephilim] were no longer pure homo-sapien
and thus not eligible for salvation. Once the genetic makeup is altered
the resultant being is no longer savable because Christ died only
for the seed of Adam, not some genetic mutant.

Gene splicing of non-human dna into human dna is being done at the present time in the lab. Google it yourself.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written
in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. - Rev 13:8
...whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world - Rev 17:8b

On here we part ways due to the fact I don't believe the nephilim to be genetic mutants.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Before there can be a response to this, were OT saints indwelt with the Holy Spirit, or was that unique to the church post pentecost?

No one can be in God's presence without the imputed righteousness of Christ by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. For this reason those who died under the Old Covenant went to paradise until Christ's sacrifice was fulfilled. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an intrinsic part of salvation through the New Covenant.