Pre Mil, pre-trib (or mid trib) question

[thomas15]

Oh the days of and discussions of dispensationalism. How I miss them

Seriously... you have faith that "God is not a monster who would enjoy harming little children"??? Have you not read about the universal flood destroying the world? Or how about God taking delight in removing the -ites from the promised land for Israel, including children?

Sorry... just a point... don't derail this thread, it is amusing. (I can make fun b/c I was there once asking the same questions)

Regardless of your belief or disbelief in a pre-trib tribulation where God pours out his wrath, or if you prefer to wait for an A-MIL ending of planet earth, at some point in history this gig ends and it is probable that on that day there will be innocent little kids caught in the crossfire. So you see mr. I'm so smart I go by the name greektim, judgement in any scenerio will be a messy deal.

 

[beameup]

On here we part ways due to the fact I don't believe the nephilim to be genetic mutants.

Perhaps the more accurate word would be hybrids.
"sons of god" [bene ha elohim] + daughters of adam [bath adam] = nephilim

Simple math.
Genesis 6.
Unsavable.

http://resources.khouse.org/products/dvd107/

 

[Greektim]

Regardless of your belief or disbelief in a pre-trib tribulation where God pours out his wrath, or if you prefer to wait for an A-MIL ending of planet earth, at some point in history this gig ends and it is probable that on that day there will be innocent little kids caught in the crossfire. So you see mr. I'm so smart I go by the name greektim, judgement in any scenerio will be a messy deal.

What Bible do you read where kids are innocent. Aren't we all born children of wrath with a sinful nature negatively disposed toward God?

I think you missed my point. Some are so concerned that toddlers get raptured out too b/c the thought of them getting caught in the crossfire is abhorrent. But the reality is, God's track record is that kids caught in the crossfire is a normal part of his ways. Why would we expect that to change just for some rapture? And if they are sinners...

BTW... I wanted the moniker "timotheos" but it was taken. So I settled for a variation. If you want to know why I chose "greektim" there is actually a funny story that has nothing to do with my intellect or the lack of yours

 

[MB]

How can one be saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

I guess it depends on whether or not they believe. Before Pentecost men were saved with out the Holy Spirit indwelling. In fact no one had the indwelling until pentecost.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The two cannot be separated. By what mechanism will salvation be given apart from the conviction, drawing & sealing of the Spirit. It is the Spirit that draws unbelievers to repentance.

That isn't so it is Christ who draws. It is God who seals. the Holy ghost is a gift. We are not saved by the Spirit we are saved by Jesus Christ. No other name under heaven can save souls.

You "have faith that our God is not a monster who would enjoy harming little children"? That is not a Biblically-based answer to my question. How many little children did He command to be slaughtered by the nation of Israel? Biblical doctrine is not based upon our "hope so" faith, but upon the clearly written words of Scripture.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Are you sure we aren't saved by hope?

Actually you are wrong here. Scripture has no saving power and it never says that it does. It is Christ alone who saves and it is always on the account of Hope?

I'm trying to have a realistic understanding of how the "rapture" would work in the real world; not just in the ethereal areas of theology. When I was a teenager, the only answer I could get from the "spiritual" leaders in my life was something along the line of "those are silly questions", "they are foolish & unlearned questions", "do not question those whom God has placed in authority", "we must believe by faith, not by human reasoning", etc. It didn't take long for me to recognize the blind indoctrination for what it was.

So, lets try it again, with specific Biblical references:

Will the unborn be raptured out of their mothers' wombs?

I have no idea. I suppose that unborn baby's of Christian mothers will be because this seems to make the most sense. They would most likely die other wise.

Will all the children & mentally ill who do not understand the gospel be raptured out as part of the Church?

I believe they will because where there is no Law there is no sin and those who are too young or retarded or mentally ill have no concept of the Law. God is absolutely Just and because of that I do not believe He would do such a thing.

What will be the new mechanism of salvation apart from the New Covenant & indwelling Holy Spirit?

Scripture never says what it will be during the tribulation. How ever it does Say the restrainer will be taken out of the way. The only part of God that would qualify is the Holy Spirit. He is the only one powerful enough to restrain eveil or Satan.

Will children conceived in the "Great Tribulation" be raptured out at conception?

Truthfully no one really knows for sure. We can only speculate at best by what we know of God Character.

How will the unregenerate understand & believe the gospel without the work of the Holy Spirit?

It is not biblical to believe the Holy Spirit enables anything in man.

If people will be/can be saved apart from the Spirit, then why do we need Him for salvation today?

The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces us of Christ. He does not save us. What you have just stated here is a case of Calvinistic imagination. No where in scripture does the Holy Spirit ever save even one soul. This is done by Jesus Christ only.
MB

 

[michael-acts17:11]

MB, before I respond, how do you split up quotes into multiple quote boxes?

 

[webdog]

Perhaps the more accurate word would be hybrids.
"sons of god" [bene ha elohim] + daughters of adam [bath adam] = nephilim

Simple math.
Genesis 6.
Unsavable.

http://resources.khouse.org/products/dvd107/

Same disagreement I don't believe fallen angels interbred with humans. Sons of God always refer to the righteous, whether angel or human (never demons) and inter-species cross breeding is impossible.

 

[DaChaser1]

Same disagreement I don't believe fallen angels interbred with humans. Sons of God always refer to the righteous, whether angel or human (never demons) and inter-species cross breeding is impossible.

what were both peter and Jude referring to though when they referred to fallen Angels lost their first habitation and decided to come down to visit daughters "strange flesh!"

Also Job has Angels addresed as sons of God!

 

[beameup]

Will the unborn be raptured out of their mothers' wombs?

Who says that a fetus even has a soul until born and takes its first breath? Adam was fully formed and lying on the ground when he received his soul.
Foreknowledge by God before birth or even before conception, or the intricacies of formation in the womb is just that - foreknowledge and nothing more.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. - 1 Cor 15:45,52,53

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [violently snatched away] together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thes 4:13

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house [oikētērion] which is from heaven: - 2 Cor 5:2

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Who says that a fetus even has a soul until born and takes its first breath? Adam was fully formed and lying on the ground when he received his soul.
Foreknowledge by God before birth or even before conception, or the intricacies of formation in the womb is just that - foreknowledge and nothing more.

Are you serious? So you think the difference between receiving oxygen through an umbilical cord or through the lungs determines whether or not a child has a soul? That position cannot be supported Biblically or medically.

Adam became a LIVING soul. Are you claiming that the unborn are not living? He received his soul when he was given life. You really need to rethink your position.

 

[beameup]

Are you serious? So you think the difference between receiving oxygen through an umbilical cord or through the lungs determines whether or not a child has a soul? That position cannot be supported Biblically or medically.

Adam became a LIVING soul. Are you claiming that the unborn are not living? He received his soul when he was given life. You really need to rethink your position.

Perhaps it is you that "needs to rethink your position", instead of coming out with nonsensical statements concerning
babies being "snatched" from their mother's womb "at the rapture".

A human being becomes a human being when God says so and not before.
All mammals become attached to the "life form" growing inside them.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Whether you are formed from the elements "of the dust of the ground" or from elements
present inside the woman's body, these are the same ELEMENTS.
Biological "life" is not synonymous with being given a soul and becoming "one whom Christ died for".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then we which are alive and remain shall be violently snatched away [harpazō] together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thes 4:17

"In the clouds" is the "first heaven" and NOT on the surface of the Earth.

 

[webdog]

what were both peter and Jude referring to though when they referred to fallen Angels lost their first habitation and decided to come down to visit daughters "strange flesh!"

Also Job has Angels addresed as sons of God!

Can you reference the passage you are talking about?

Angels are addressed as sons of God...never fallen angels. Huge difference.

 

[Aaron]

Will the unborn be raptured out of their mothers' wombs?

Cool! Sounds like another "Alien" flick.

 

[Aaron]

Oh the days of and discussions of dispensationalism. How I miss them

Seriously... you have faith that "God is not a monster who would enjoy harming little children"??? Have you not read about the universal flood destroying the world? Or how about God taking delight in removing the -ites from the promised land for Israel, including children?

Sorry... just a point... don't derail this thread, it is amusing. (I can make fun b/c I was there once asking the same questions)

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

:thumbs::thumbs:

After Christ died, how many examples of this do we see?

 

[Aaron]

Of thumbs?? Or of aliens bursting from bellies?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Perhaps it is you that "needs to rethink your position", instead of coming out with nonsensical statements concerning
babies being "snatched" from their mother's womb "at the rapture".

A human being becomes a human being when God says so and not before.
All mammals become attached to the "life form" growing inside them.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Whether you are formed from the elements "of the dust of the ground" or from elements
present inside the woman's body, these are the same ELEMENTS.
Biological "life" is not synonymous with being given a soul and becoming "one whom Christ died for".

The unborn child is a biologically separate entity from its mother. It is not merely biological "elements" with no form or function. The baby's heart is beating & circulating blood through a closed circulatory system within 21 days. According to God, the One who created life, the circulatory system defines life. The baby is breathing oxygenated fluid by 12wks. Your position is either one of great ignorance or an extreme political view. The fact that you refuse to distinguish between mere biological "elements" & a living child is appalling. No matter how hard you twist Scripture to support a view that condones the murder of the unborn, it is still an unGodly, unScriptural position.

"A human being becomes a human being when God says so and not before."

You've yet to give a single Passage which states that life begins at birth. Adam's life was a result of being given a soul. The fact that the unborn are living persons is proof that they have a God-given soul.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev 17:11)

For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. (Lev 17:14)

Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh. (Deu 12:23)

When the bodily functions & systems begin:
Circulatory System: 3wks
Brain Waves: 6wks
Pain Sensation: 9wks
Breathing: 12wks
Finger Prints: 14wks
Rapid Eye Movement (REM) 23 wks

Now that you have been informed with the Biblical & biological facts, you are left without excuse for holding such a life-depreciating view.

 

[beameup]

I didn't notice the soul mentioned in your list.
All the rest is just speculation and "feelings" and nothing more.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.

The soul is given at first breath.

Lev 17:14: "the life of ALL FLESH is in the blood".
Certainly my dog is evidence of this, but my dog has no soul.

Now that you have been informed with the Biblical & biological facts, you are left
without excuse for holding such a life-depreciating view.

Now that you have been shown that you form doctrine without any scripture to back it up, and ignore sound scripture,
you are without excuse as you are basing your "doctrine" on "feelings" or "personal beliefs" and "presuppositions".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [violently snatched away]
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thes 4:17 SOUND DOCTRINE

 

[convicted1]

The unborn child is a biologically separate entity from its mother. It is not merely biological "elements" with no form or function. The baby's heart is beating & circulating blood through a closed circulatory system within 21 days. According to God, the One who created life, the circulatory system defines life. The baby is breathing oxygenated fluid by 12wks. Your position is either one of great ignorance or an extreme political view. The fact that you refuse to distinguish between mere biological "elements" & a living child is appalling. No matter how hard you twist Scripture to support a view that condones the murder of the unborn, it is still an unGodly, unScriptural position.

"A human being becomes a human being when God says so and not before."

You've yet to give a single Passage which states that life begins at birth. Adam's life was a result of being given a soul. The fact that the unborn are living persons is proof that they have a God-given soul.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev 17:11)

For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. (Lev 17:14)

Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh. (Deu 12:23)

When the bodily functions & systems begin:
Circulatory System: 3wks
Brain Waves: 6wks
Pain Sensation: 9wks
Breathing: 12wks
Finger Prints: 14wks
Rapid Eye Movement (REM) 23 wks

Now that you have been informed with the Biblical & biological facts, you are left without excuse for holding such a life-depreciating view.

The things beammeup are purporting, are eerily similiar to what the pro-choicers think. FTR, I am NOT saying he is "pro-choice", just that I am thinking the "pro-choicers" would use this to try to approve abortions.

 

[thomas15]

BTW... I wanted the moniker "timotheos" but it was taken. So I settled for a variation. If you want to know why I chose "greektim" there is actually a funny story that has nothing to do with my intellect or the lack of yours

You might consider changing your moniker to strawman, I think that is still open.

 

[DaChaser1]

You might consider changing your moniker to strawman, I think that is still open.

oy maybe "Dispy are Christians also, maybe?"