stevenlynch
New Member
Isn't it ironic that the Jews of the day were looking for a Physical Kingdom...and the Mainline churches of today...are looking for a Spiritual one?
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Pre-millenial dispensationalism - Baptist?
- Thread starter Matt Black
- Start date
stevenlynch
New Member
Tim,
Again I ask...has Grant Jeffery ever claimed to be a prophet?
The particular subject at hand isn't even about things in the future...its about something that ALREADY HAPPENED.
Bring me something on the 360 years left on Ezekiel's prophecy.
and of the 4 items you replied to ...I agree to all of them. You stated however that Jesus was declared King by Pilate. Agreed.
When did Jesus sit on the Throne of David?
Both Isaiah and Jeremiah said he would. When did it happen?
[ July 28, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: stevenlynch ]
Again I ask...has Grant Jeffery ever claimed to be a prophet?
The particular subject at hand isn't even about things in the future...its about something that ALREADY HAPPENED.
Bring me something on the 360 years left on Ezekiel's prophecy.
and of the 4 items you replied to ...I agree to all of them. You stated however that Jesus was declared King by Pilate. Agreed.
When did Jesus sit on the Throne of David?
Both Isaiah and Jeremiah said he would. When did it happen?
[ July 28, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: stevenlynch ]
Grasshopper, "this generation" refers to the generation that sees all these things. Stop with the eisegesis. It does not help discussion.
please, spare me your lecture. They saw all those things.
Isn't it ironic that the Jews of the day were looking for a Physical Kingdom...and the Mainline churches of today...are looking for a Spiritual one?
I disagree, the Jews were looking for a physical Kingdom and Jesus corrected them. Now the church today is still looking and waiting on a physical Kingdom.
John 18: 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence
please, spare me your lecture. They saw all those things.
Isn't it ironic that the Jews of the day were looking for a Physical Kingdom...and the Mainline churches of today...are looking for a Spiritual one?
I disagree, the Jews were looking for a physical Kingdom and Jesus corrected them. Now the church today is still looking and waiting on a physical Kingdom.
John 18: 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence
Primitive Baptist
New Member
stevenlynch, read what Peter said about David and his throne in Acts 2.
stevenlynch
New Member
Hey Matt...
esplain intra & extra canonanonoicial
Steve
esplain intra & extra canonanonoicial
Steve
stevenlynch
New Member
Hey Gunther...spare Grasshopper you're lecture.
He's a Texan. He thinks Texas is God's country...not Israel.
Zola was right about that Dallas Theological Sem. Replacements.
Oh...its unfortunate... my old church in Woodrow, TX is the same way... Replacement Theology.
I heard Alaska was considering splitting in two...just to make Texas the 3rd largest state.
He's a Texan. He thinks Texas is God's country...not Israel.
Zola was right about that Dallas Theological Sem. Replacements.
Oh...its unfortunate... my old church in Woodrow, TX is the same way... Replacement Theology.
I heard Alaska was considering splitting in two...just to make Texas the 3rd largest state.
1. Saw what things? According to you, it is all symbolic anyway. How would they have known? They wouldn't have. Words have to actually have meaning for communication to take place.
2. The kingdom of Christ is not OF this world or its system or its kind.
Christ's kingdom exists in a mystery form but will be finally realized when he again invades humanity.
Stop with the Christ is ruling with a wiffle bat theology.
stevenlynch
New Member
PrimitiveBaptist,
I see Peter's explanation. I also see that the throne in Heaven is the Father's Throne.
Are you implying that the Throne of David is in Heaven?
Jeremiah and Isaiah indicate the Throne of David is in Jerusalem.
Here's a good question though...Is there a description of the "Throne of David" anywhere in scripture? I'm talking about a physical description.
I see Peter's explanation. I also see that the throne in Heaven is the Father's Throne.
Are you implying that the Throne of David is in Heaven?
Jeremiah and Isaiah indicate the Throne of David is in Jerusalem.
Here's a good question though...Is there a description of the "Throne of David" anywhere in scripture? I'm talking about a physical description.
stevenlynch
New Member
oooooo
"when he again invades humanity"
"wiffle bat theology"
Gunther...can I steal that? Those are good!
"when he again invades humanity"
"wiffle bat theology"
Gunther...can I steal that? Those are good!
stevenlynch
New Member
I'm wondering... do you think Americans will be able to give up their Democracy...for Christ ruled Monarchy?
What about Texans?
What about Texans?
He's a Texan. He thinks Texas is God's country...not Israel. I heard Alaska was considering splitting in two...just to make Texas
You are as educated about me as you are Eschatology. I live in Texas but am and will always be an Okie. I happen to agree with your comments about some texas arrogance. I guess when you run out of Ideas you start personal attacks. Notice I said nothing about Hillbillys.
Words have to actually have meaning for communication to take place.
I don't think you want to go there. I have over 100 time-indicators that you say don't mean what the say.( near, soon, at-hand, last hour etc...)
I believe I will hold off on discussing this with you 2 boys. You might want to read some of HankD or Pastor Larry's post. They believe what you do but express themselves much more intelligently.
You are as educated about me as you are Eschatology. I live in Texas but am and will always be an Okie. I happen to agree with your comments about some texas arrogance. I guess when you run out of Ideas you start personal attacks. Notice I said nothing about Hillbillys.
Words have to actually have meaning for communication to take place.
I don't think you want to go there. I have over 100 time-indicators that you say don't mean what the say.( near, soon, at-hand, last hour etc...)
I believe I will hold off on discussing this with you 2 boys. You might want to read some of HankD or Pastor Larry's post. They believe what you do but express themselves much more intelligently.
...boys... Are you kidding me? Did you check my profile and see my age?
No one denies the time indicators. You however fail to recognize the fact that they do have more than one interpretation.
For example, "quickly" can speak of chronological order, or quality. In other words, he will come within a few years. Or, when he comes, it will be quick.
For example, "this generation" in Matthew 24 can speak of the current generation that Jesus lived in, or it can mean the generation that witnesses the events. Obviously, the latter is true in both instances. You think we are in the New heavens and New earth though so I guess false teachers, suffering, sin, etc., are just an illusion.
stevenlynch
New Member
Hey Grasshopper...
"Spare me the lecture"
Bob Hope dies...and suddenly nobody can take a joke.
"Spare me the lecture"
Bob Hope dies...and suddenly nobody can take a joke.
Steve,Originally posted by stevenlynch:
Hey Matt...
esplain intra & extra canonanonoicial
Steve
'Intra-canonical' means 'within Scripture'; 'extra canonical' means 'outside of Scripture' ie: quite clearly there is a progressive revelation within Scripture from Genesis through Revelation, but I would be extremely wary of anyone claiming revelation outside of or after the closure of the canon of Scripture - as I've already indicated that sounds like either Catholicism or some of the brands of the charismatic "God-is-doing-a-new-thing" movement.
Yours in Christ
Matt
stevenlynch
New Member
Matt,
I was pretty sure what you meant before...just needed clarification and you did well.
I DEFINITELY DO NOT think "God is doing a new thing".
I think there are things to be learned by how history has played out and by how we see the hand of God involved in all of it. It brings glory to God.
here's an interesting verse I found that goes along with my previous posting of Deut. 29:29.
My teacher instructed me that da'ath refers to discernment, understanding and wisdom.
As I look through Strong's, I see that the Hebrews have different words for different kinds of knowledge and wisdom. Some for technical skill (yada'), some for business administration (maada'), and some for knowledge about God (da'ath).
There's 172 uses of the word "Knowledge" in the bible...and 234 for "wisdom".
If I got to go check them all for you...I want college credit.
If the angels are learning from us...as Paul instructed in Ephesians...why can't we learn what God is doing too?
I was pretty sure what you meant before...just needed clarification and you did well.
I DEFINITELY DO NOT think "God is doing a new thing".
I think there are things to be learned by how history has played out and by how we see the hand of God involved in all of it. It brings glory to God.
here's an interesting verse I found that goes along with my previous posting of Deut. 29:29.
and who are these kings?
again I look at Deut. 29:29 and I see us gaining knowledge as was revealed to Daniel:
Now I did a little checking on the Hebrew word for knowledge (da'ath) in that verse. I don't know Hebrew so I had to use Stong's. (I know... a little bit of knowledge ... )
My teacher instructed me that da'ath refers to discernment, understanding and wisdom.
As I look through Strong's, I see that the Hebrews have different words for different kinds of knowledge and wisdom. Some for technical skill (yada'), some for business administration (maada'), and some for knowledge about God (da'ath).
There's 172 uses of the word "Knowledge" in the bible...and 234 for "wisdom".
If I got to go check them all for you...I want college credit.
If the angels are learning from us...as Paul instructed in Ephesians...why can't we learn what God is doing too?
Thanks for the honor of speaking with you Matt. You're a scholar and a gentleman.
Thanks for your kind comments, Steve, which I heartily reciprocate 
> I can take your point about our need to learn from God constantly; indeed this is something we must as part of our walk with Him. BUT, forgive me for sounding like an old cynic , but I am still wary of a doctrine that was (virtually) unknown to the church prior to Margaret MacDonald and John Nelson Darby in the 1830s. If the Plymouth Brethren want to have it as a 'distinctive', that's fine, but I'm not sure why so many Baptist churches need it.
Yours in Christ
Matt
> I can take your point about our need to learn from God constantly; indeed this is something we must as part of our walk with Him. BUT, forgive me for sounding like an old cynic , but I am still wary of a doctrine that was (virtually) unknown to the church prior to Margaret MacDonald and John Nelson Darby in the 1830s. If the Plymouth Brethren want to have it as a 'distinctive', that's fine, but I'm not sure why so many Baptist churches need it.Yours in Christ
Matt
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48
(1) Remember it is a vision - Ezekiel 40:2
(2) The millennium is not mentioned once in the context of Ezekiel 40 to 48
(3) To hold to such a hyper-literalist view on the temple would require you(if you are going to be consistent) to believe in the restoration of the abolished sacrifices, which is absolutely preposterous. The sacrifices have been done away forever through the atoning work of Calvary!!! I personal struggled with this Pre-mill doctrine while I was premill and was relieved to abandon it when I became an Amillennialist.
The meat offering - Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29; 45:15,17, 24, 25; 46:5,7,11,14,15,20
The sin offering - Ezekiel 40:39; 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25; 44:27, 29; 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25; 46:20
The trespass offering - Ezekiel 40:39; 42:13; 44:29; 46:20
The burnt offerings - Ezekiel 40:38,39,42; 43:18,24,27; 44:11; 45:15,17,23,25; 46:2,4,12,13,15
The peace offerings - Ezekeil 43:27; 45:15,17; 46:2,12
The drink offering - Ezekiel 45:17
In the Premillennialist scheme of thought, numerous offerings for sin are going to be re-introduced in a supposed future millennium age, against the expressed purpose of God.
Also, the Levitical sons of Zadok will be restored (Ezekiel 40:46; 43:19; 44:15; 48:11)
It is fanctiful to believe that this will be restored.
Of course the wealth of New Testament support for spiritualising this VISION is overwhelming, whereas, support for literalising this VISION is NOTHING. Thankfully, we have now entered into the new economy - the Messianic period - and can safely intepret the old in the light of the new, not the other way round, which Pre-mills consistently do!!! The sacrifices and temple rituals are therefore abolished FOREVER.
The temple is Christ and the water flowing from Him is spiritual living water.
This spiritual water in the VISION rises upon the prophet of Ezk. 47:3-5:
(1) "The waters were to the ankles" (vs.3)
(2) "the waters were to the knees" (vs.4)
(3) "the waters were to the loins" (vs.4)
(4) "the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a
river that could not be passed over" (vs.5)
Also, I can see the vision of Ezekiel chapter 48 speaks of future eternality city - New Jerusalem. Notice Ezek. 48:31-35 speak of the twelve gates of the city, these are 12 tribes of Israel. It fits with Rev. 21:12-13.
I do not see any mentioned on 'a thousand years' anywhere in the context of Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 nothing at all. No way, you can prove that Ezekiel 40 to 48 speaks of future supposed millennial kingdom such as it claims 'a thousand years'. Because Ezekiel 40-48 do not mentioned on 'a thousand years'.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
(1) Remember it is a vision - Ezekiel 40:2
(2) The millennium is not mentioned once in the context of Ezekiel 40 to 48
(3) To hold to such a hyper-literalist view on the temple would require you(if you are going to be consistent) to believe in the restoration of the abolished sacrifices, which is absolutely preposterous. The sacrifices have been done away forever through the atoning work of Calvary!!! I personal struggled with this Pre-mill doctrine while I was premill and was relieved to abandon it when I became an Amillennialist.
The meat offering - Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29; 45:15,17, 24, 25; 46:5,7,11,14,15,20
The sin offering - Ezekiel 40:39; 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25; 44:27, 29; 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25; 46:20
The trespass offering - Ezekiel 40:39; 42:13; 44:29; 46:20
The burnt offerings - Ezekiel 40:38,39,42; 43:18,24,27; 44:11; 45:15,17,23,25; 46:2,4,12,13,15
The peace offerings - Ezekeil 43:27; 45:15,17; 46:2,12
The drink offering - Ezekiel 45:17
In the Premillennialist scheme of thought, numerous offerings for sin are going to be re-introduced in a supposed future millennium age, against the expressed purpose of God.
Also, the Levitical sons of Zadok will be restored (Ezekiel 40:46; 43:19; 44:15; 48:11)
It is fanctiful to believe that this will be restored.
Of course the wealth of New Testament support for spiritualising this VISION is overwhelming, whereas, support for literalising this VISION is NOTHING. Thankfully, we have now entered into the new economy - the Messianic period - and can safely intepret the old in the light of the new, not the other way round, which Pre-mills consistently do!!! The sacrifices and temple rituals are therefore abolished FOREVER.
The temple is Christ and the water flowing from Him is spiritual living water.
This spiritual water in the VISION rises upon the prophet of Ezk. 47:3-5:
(1) "The waters were to the ankles" (vs.3)
(2) "the waters were to the knees" (vs.4)
(3) "the waters were to the loins" (vs.4)
(4) "the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a
river that could not be passed over" (vs.5)
Also, I can see the vision of Ezekiel chapter 48 speaks of future eternality city - New Jerusalem. Notice Ezek. 48:31-35 speak of the twelve gates of the city, these are 12 tribes of Israel. It fits with Rev. 21:12-13.
I do not see any mentioned on 'a thousand years' anywhere in the context of Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 nothing at all. No way, you can prove that Ezekiel 40 to 48 speaks of future supposed millennial kingdom such as it claims 'a thousand years'. Because Ezekiel 40-48 do not mentioned on 'a thousand years'.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Primitive Baptist
New Member
Many times the Old Testament Scriptures use the name "David," but it is foreshadowing Christ. Many examples of this are found in the Old Testament. The point is that Christ's reign would be typical of David's, and so would His throne. It does not mean that Jesus would actually sit on David's throne. As a matter of fact, He cannot. Read the book of Hebrews. It says that Moses never spake anything concerning priests from the tribe of Judah, only the Levites of the tribe of Levi could be priests. Also, read Zechariah 6. That explains that He would sit and rule upon His throne and be a priest upon His throne. He is a sitting, ruling, reigning priest right now! Even look at how Peter interpreted the Psalms. He said that David has not risen into the heavens, BUT the Lord said unto my Lord sit thou at my right hand till I make thine enemies thy footstool. Well, duh, Peter, if Jesus will not assume the throne of David till the thousand-year Jewish kingdom, of course David has not risen.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Primitive Baptist,
AMEN! I am 100% agree with you completely!
AMEN! I am 100% agree with you completely!