okay, let's try this again...cursed safari...anyhoo, oh goody, let's talk Greek!
ὠδίνων is used generally to refer to signs of the end. I'm okay with that. Yet it doesn't refer to an explicit moment prior to a tribulation, or difficult, period and never has an attachment of chronology to it. Rather the usage in the NT refers singularly to difficults times approach the return of Christ. No premillennial, even amillennial, eschatology disagrees with this. However, the term is never used in assocation with a specific time period or given delimitations of time.
1. Where does the term occur with the definite article and what is the context?
2. Why is this term, used in Acts 7:10f; 11:19; 14:22; 20:23, refer to persecutions or trials experience in the time frame of the passages to the referents/disciples? Why is the usage, outside of this, eschatologically only speaking of a 7 year tribulation?
3. Why is the Church seemingly present for the trials when Jesus speaks of the trials/tribulations/suffering?
4. Why is the time period you've ascribed 7 years? Why not 77? Why not 700? Why not 7 weeks? Why not 10 years? etc
5. Where does the NT directly associate, explicitly associate, 7 years with a tribulation period unlike any other?
6. Why is it the majority uses of this term in epistolary literature (including Pauline) specifically mention sufferings going on in history or the present of the readers of the letters?
7. When is the term μεγάλη used with the term for suffering/tribulation? How many times does that occur?
I'll stop at 7 since it is a relevant number for our discussion.
Anyhoo, my hope is that I've given you plenty to think about. The difficulty of the dispensational pre-trib/pre-mil interpretation of Scripture is that it isn't found in Scripture explicitly but only through the coupling of a literalist and figurative read of Scripture. Yet they claim to be literalists. It is not a consistent hermeneutic to prove their point. In the end even progressive dispensationalist who are historical pre-mil like me look with eager anticipation to the coming of Christ. We just believe the Second Coming is the Second Coming...not Second Coming A and Second Coming B.
I look forward to your, or anyone else's, reply to my points.
Let's first look at number 4 where I can get definite time periods:
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
which is a 3 1/2 year period.
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
the second 3 1/2 year period in which the woman not the bride of Christ but the Woman which had the man child, normally a reference to Israel as the Nation in Which Christ would come.
These times make 7 years.
Of course the Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
70 weeks are determined, from history of this we know that these weeks involved 7 year periods for whn Jesus came and was cut off there had passed 483 years of time and messiah was cut off. The balance of the 70 weeks was not fulfilled by Christ nor has yet happened. The abomination which will stand in the temple has yet to happen. So this is a 7 year period that must be fulfilled. We are told in Revelation that Christ will reign for 1000 years at His return and the 7 years of this end will not see the abomination standing in the temple as Christ said so when does it happen? Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Here is the midst of the 70th week of Daniel 42 months or 3 1/2 years. The 1st of the week seen in
Revelation11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
The 1 st 42 month of the 84 or 7 years is seen here.
Where is the church, Reveleation 3:10 gives the ANSWER:
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
The church is promised to be kept from the time of trouble or affliction or Tribualtion.
Hour (gr Hora) of temptation Periasmos
Hora
a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
the daytime (bounded by the rising and setting of the sun), a day
a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, (the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun)
any definite time, point of time, moment
Peirasmos an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:
the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
an internal temptation to sin 1b
of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness
temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves
Notice Christ says it is a time coming which will try them that swell upon the earth and yet the church will be kept from it. Those who keep the word of His patience, those who trust Chirst. Throughout Revelation and with Daniel and Christ telling the church that they will be kept from the time of adverstiy affliction or trouble. The middle verses of Revelation give us the time period for this and we see that the Nation Israel not the Church is under attacke in this period.
Revelation 4:1 coupled with 1 Thessalonians 4 shows the church being snatched out, 1 Corithians 3 shows the believers receiving rewards at the judgement seat of Christ not at the Great White throne in which the unbelievers face at the end of the Tribulation and we see a church in Heaven while the time of affliction lasting 7 years is occuring on the earth.
Pretty clear their is a tribulation period coming and it will last 7 years.
