Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

[webdog]

The flood-rapture analogy doesn't fly. The eight righteous people were not taken away from the flood. The were preserved right smack-dab in the middle of it.

Actually, they were above the wrath of God, above the floodwaters...like those in the rapture are above the wrath of God being poured out on earth. Like Allan stated, they were safe, dry and away from God's wrath, not bobbing in the water. They didn't perish. Dispensationalism is the only system that can mirror the flood symbolism.

 

[OldRegular]

Statement by HankD
RE: The start of the wrath of God:

Original Post by OldRegular
I believe it starts in Chapter 6.

Revelation 6:12-17
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Response by HankD
This IMO is a generalized statement and even has a future tense “who shall be able to stand”

I think you are mistaken. I believe the clause who shall be able to stand? is the subjunctive mode since it follows a clause in the present tense For the great day of his wrath is come.

 

[OldRegular]

Dispensationalism is the only system that can mirror the flood symbolism.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Was the prophecy that was given to Daniel for the Jews or the church?

I think it was for the Jews, since they are the ones that God sent the prophets to. So why should we think that the 70th week of Daniel has anything to do with the church? What purpose would God have in telling Daniel to prophesy to the Jews about the church, of which they could not have possibly been able to understand?

The 70th week must have been for the Jews and has nothing to do with the church.

Amen, Sister Amy.G -- You are so RIGHT ON :thumbs:

So it is obvious that the largely gentile church will be GONE in the 70th Week of Daniel - i.e. the pretrib rapture2 (resurrection1 followed by a rapture1) occurs - lead my Messiah Jesus, of course.

 

[Me4Him]

The flood-rapture analogy doesn't fly. The eight righteous people were not taken away from the flood. The were preserved right smack-dab in the middle of it.

The only connection I'm aware of between Noah's flood and the trib is the following,

Re 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Noah's flood was "literally water", that carried away the wicked, the serpent's flood will be "DOCTRINE", to convince "people of the prince" (wicked people) to help him eliminate (carry away righteous) Jews as Hitler did.

Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High,

De 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain,

Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst;

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I think, several of pretribs are seem misunderstanding what Amy.G was trying to say about Daniel 70th Week. I believe that she was not suggest that there is distinction of Israel and Church on Daniel 70th Week. I am pretty sure that Amy would have saying of 70th Week was already fulfilled as she believe it applied to the Jew sof the O.T. about Jerusalem. Dan. 9:24-27 have do nothing with supposed future "seven year of Tribulation Period".

Dan. 9:27 was focus on Jesus Christ and Calvary. That 70 weeks (490 years) was already fulfilled that Christ made a new covenant with many by through his blood at Calvary, and He did ended the daily sacrifices, he did actually destroyed it -John 2:19 ; Matt. 27:51. Now God is no longer need daily sacrifices and physical temple, because Jesus is the temple that we all need. He is the new covenant.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Amy.G,

Am I correct as what you was trying to explain on Daniel 70th Week?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Tom Butler]

Actually, they were above the wrath of God, above the floodwaters...like those in the rapture are above the wrath of God being poured out on earth. Like Allan stated, they were safe, dry and away from God's wrath, not bobbing in the water. They didn't perish. Dispensationalism is the only system that can mirror the flood symbolism.

They were not above the floodwaters. They were in a boat in the floodwaters. The wrath of God was played out before their very eyes. It was all around them. God protected them in the flood, not above the flood.

Drive-by poster moving on for a while. I'll drive by later.

 

[Grasshopper]

I know the Scripture, I'm asking you "who" are fleeing to the mountains.

He is speaking to His Disciples:
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out and departed from the temple. And His disciples came to Himto show Him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said to them, Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone on another that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled, for all these things must occur; but the end is not yet.

Mat 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

Mat 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).

Mat 24:16 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.


Those living in Jerusalem who were Disciples or followers of Christ would see the signs and heed the warning and flee Jerusalem.

Luk 21:20 And when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that its destruction has come.
Luk 21:21 And let those in Judea flee to the mountains. And those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her.

The natural thing to do was to run into Jerusalem for protection, but Jesus tells them to do just the opposite.

 

[Grasshopper]

Well said, and this is why dispensationalism is the only thing that makes sense of all of Scripture.

It makes no sense because you put a phoney gap in between the 69th and 70th week. We could all come up with systems that "make sense of all scripture" if we are allowed to insert gaps, rearrange scriptures and change definitions.

There is absolutely no reason to assume there is a gap in between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. When God told Judah they will be in captivity for 70 years, do you think it meant for 70 consecutive years? Or did those assume perhaps there might be a 2000 year gap in there somewhere?

Messiah is cut off AFTER 69 weeks, not at the end of 69 weeks. What comes AFTER 69? 70. Messiah was cut off during the 70th week.

Dan 9:26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.

 

[Me4Him]

Drive-by poster moving on for a while. I'll drive by later.

Now that Gas prices are down, you're back tooling around in the SUV, Right??? :laugh: :godisgood:

 

[Amy.G]

Amy.G,

Am I correct as what you was trying to explain on Daniel 70th Week?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

You are correct. :thumbs:

It seems like some keep trying to apply OT prophecies to the church. I think the 70th week prophecy was given to the Jews for their warning and had nothing to do with the church. Especially since Jesus made referrence to Daniel when He was telling the disciples about the things that would take place in Israel in the destruction.


As a side note, the only time Daniel is spoken of in the NT, is by Jesus. Paul makes no mention of the prophecies of Daniel when he is speaking to the church.
The only time the "abomination of desolation" is spoken of in the NT is by Jesus. Paul makes no mention of it when speaking to the church.

The only time a tribulation "period" is spoken of in the NT is by Jesus. Paul does not speak of a 7 year tribulation period in his letters to the church.

There seems to be pattern here. Jesus was speaking to the Jews, because He came to the Jews. Paul is speaking to the church. I do not see that the future events that Jesus describes, regarding a "great tribulation" have anything to do with the church. They obviously are prophecies to the Jews. Why would Paul leave out this very important information? Maybe because it wasn't mean for the church????

 

[Me4Him]

It makes no sense because you put a phoney gap in between the 69th and 70th week. We could all come up with systems that "make sense of all scripture" if we are allowed to insert gaps, rearrange scriptures and change definitions.

There is absolutely no reason to assume there is a gap in between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. When God told Judah they will be in captivity for 70 years, do you think it meant for 70 consecutive years? Or did those assume perhaps there might be a 2000 year gap in there somewhere?

Messiah is cut off AFTER 69 weeks, not at the end of 69 weeks. What comes AFTER 69? 70. Messiah was cut off during the 70th week.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.

for the Church/believers, all of the above has already "Spiritually" been fulfilled,

but has it been "Literally" fulfilled for Israel???

Don't miss the point that the fulfilment for Israel will "literally" mean the end of the 70th week.

 

[Tom Butler]

Now that Gas prices are down, you're back tooling around in the SUV, Right??? :laugh: :godisgood:

I wish! But now that prices are down, I can drive by more often.

 

[Grasshopper]

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.

for the Church/believers, all of the above has already "Spiritually" been fulfilled,

but has it been "Literally" fulfilled for Israel???

Don't miss the point that the fulfilment for Israel will "literally" mean the end of the 70th week.

You seem to keep missing it. A prophecy can be fulfilled spiritually and it still be a literal fulfillment. Everyone of those was literally fulfilled.

 

[HankD]

I think you are mistaken. I believe the clause who shall be able to stand? is the subjunctive mode since it follows a clause in the present tense For the great day of his wrath is come.

I may well be mistaken because I realize it is subjective to the reader and his/her interpretation. Actually the verb "to be able" is indicative active or passive deponent and can function as a future tense. There are several classes of subjunctive in koine and this appears to be none of them.

Revelation 6

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

The great day of his wrath, I believe refers to the general and referential use of the phrase. Jesus Himself said that certain signs would be present just before the end. Many of those signs are found in Revelation 4 - 15 and many of the OT prophets.​

Malachi 3 - from whence this phrase comes says that there will be the work of preparation and a purging of Israel associated with the day of His coming:​

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.​

Many will be saved out of the great tribulation leading up to Chapter 16.​

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
16 "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."​

There are those however (in Chapter 16) who remain and are totally unrepentent and in fact even blaspheme God rather than repent.​

Revelation 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.​

...​

10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.
11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.​

...​

21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.​

Everything up to Chapter 16 leads up to that day and even in that day the expectation is repentance, however these are content to put their stamp of approval on what they are, unrepentant blasphemers.​

To repent and be saved and live eternally with God is worse in their estimation than whatever the consequence.​

"better to reign in hell, than serve in heaven"?​

Also the cardinal number is used in Chapter 18​

Revelation 18
8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day -- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.​

This after a protracted period of time from Revelation 4 -15.​

HankD​

 

[webdog]

They were not above the floodwaters. They were in a boat in the floodwaters. The wrath of God was played out before their very eyes. It was all around them. God protected them in the flood, not above the flood.

Drive-by poster moving on for a while. I'll drive by later.

Unless the ark was a submarine, they were above water. While the actual ark was touching (in the water), the people were not in the water, they were above the water.

 

[OldRegular]

I think, several of pretribs are seem misunderstanding what Amy.G was trying to say about Daniel 70th Week. I believe that she was not suggest that there is distinction of Israel and Church on Daniel 70th Week. I am pretty sure that Amy would have saying of 70th Week was already fulfilled as she believe it applied to the Jew sof the O.T. about Jerusalem. Dan. 9:24-27 have do nothing with supposed future "seven year of Tribulation Period".

Dan. 9:27 was focus on Jesus Christ and Calvary. That 70 weeks (490 years) was already fulfilled that Christ made a new covenant with many by through his blood at Calvary, and He did ended the daily sacrifices, he did actually destroyed it -John 2:19 ; Matt. 27:51. Now God is no longer need daily sacrifices and physical temple, because Jesus is the temple that we all need. He is the new covenant.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Great post DeafPosttrib

I was going to post my take on Amy's very perceptive statement. However, you have gotten to the heart of the matter in one paragraph while I would have taken several. Many thanks!:applause:

OldRegular

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by Me4Him
Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.

for the Church/believers, all of the above has already "Spiritually" been fulfilled,

but has it been "Literally" fulfilled for Israel???

Don't miss the point that the fulfilment for Israel will "literally" mean the end of the 70th week.

Response by Grasshopper
You seem to keep missing it. A prophecy can be fulfilled spiritually and it still be a literal fulfillment. Everyone of those was literally fulfilled.

I believe you and DeafPosttrib are essentially in agreement.

 

[Todd W. White]

Hello All,

I've been reading this thread with much interest for quite some time.

What amazes me is that no one seems to be answering the actual question originally posed:

"Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise." Seems to me much of what has been said in this thread is tangential to the original question, rather than answering it directly.

Equally amazing is that no one has put forth one of the most compelling arguments from the Bible about the issue.

Why is that?

I have a response, and tried to type it in, but it exceeded the forum software's limit on the number of characters allowed in one post.

Perhaps I could post it here in parts?