Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

[thomas15]

The post you will never see on this board:

"I used to be xxxtrib* (fill in pre-post-mid-none of the above) BUT because of this instructional thread, I have re-thought my personal theology and now I'm xxxtrib*. [* or "A-mil, Pre-mil, or Post-mil or dispensationalist or covenant]."

 

[Grasshopper]

The post you will never see on this board:

"I used to be xxxtrib* (fill in pre-post-mid-none of the above) BUT because of this instructional thread, I have re-thought my personal theology and now I'm xxxtrib*. [* or "A-mil, Pre-mil, or Post-mil or dispensationalist or covenant]."

But perhaps there are many who haven't decided who may learn something while viewing these threads and are then forced to study for themselves and ask tough questions.

 

[JDale]

It's been a while since I had the chance to post on BB, but some of the posts in this thread reminded me of a truth well established in my mind from these forums. Almost no one really wants to get questions about eschatology answered -- they want to expose another avenue for attack.

This reality is especially obvious when discussing the subjects of Dispensationalism and the Pre-Trib rapture (I'd add Calvnism, but that goes without saying). Despite a number of solid Biblical cases made by several top notch Scholars and Bible students here, those who wish to be blind simply will not see. Not on this thread, not on past threads!

Yes, I'm a Pre-tribulationist, a Dispensational Premillennialist. Is that okay, or is it heresy, evidence that I'm not really saved, and grounds for rejecting me both as a minister and as a Brother in Christ?

:tear: The divisions in the Body are so clear in the face of horrendous challenges that should be motivating our fellowship and unity -- it actually goes to prove the case for Dispensationalism -- the failure of the institutional church to accomplish its God-given mission.

 

[Grasshopper]

It's been a while since I had the chance to post on BB, but some of the posts in this thread reminded me of a truth well established in my mind from these forums. Almost no one really wants to get questions about eschatology answered -- they want to expose another avenue for attack.

Does that include you? Or just those who hold a different view than you?

This reality is especially obvious when discussing the subjects of Dispensationalism and the Pre-Trib rapture (I'd add Calvnism, but that goes without saying). Despite a number of solid Biblical cases made by several top notch Scholars and Bible students here, those who wish to be blind simply will not see. Not on this thread, not on past threads!

Let me guess, the "top notch scholars" you refer to also hold your position. True?

Yes, I'm a Pre-tribulationist, a Dispensational Premillennialist. Is that okay, or is it heresy, evidence that I'm not really saved, and grounds for rejecting me both as a minister and as a Brother in Christ?

Hyperbole or do you know of any cases that confirm your hypothesis? Has anyone on this board made such an accusation? Try being on the preterist side of eschatology and see how you are welcomed in the Church.


:tear:

The divisions in the Body are so clear in the face of horrendous challenges that should be motivating our fellowship and unity -- it actually goes to prove the case for Dispensationalism -- the failure of the institutional church to accomplish its God-given mission.

So the failure of God's instituted Church is proof of your eschatology?

Eph 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
Eph 3:21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen.

 

[HankD]

the failure of the institutional church to accomplish its God-given mission.

True JD and Jesus explained/prophecied that there would be at least a partial failure (sower and the seed) and an infiltration of children the evil one (wheat and the tares) into the work of spreading the good news of the Gospel in Matthew 13.

It is good that you used the phrase the "institutional church".
Professing Christendom is another way of saying it.

Jesus Church built on the Rock of salvation (Himself) as He promised will never fail because the Gates of hell will not prevail against it.

It is not God's failure but man's. Many accuse dispensationalists of saying that God's plan failed so He took a different path and perhaps some ill-informed dispensationalists have implied that but it's not true for the core belief.

God knows the very end from the very beginning. Jesus never fails, but He does allow us to fail. He also allows the evil one and His children to thwart us, but "at the end of the Day" He will return in His glory and He will separate out all those who belong to the evil one and take care of them.

And I'm not implaying that anyone here is one the devil's children.

We are debating, sometimes we get carried away and "get a little hot under the collar".

Though we shouldn't.

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

It's been a while since I had the chance to post on BB, but some of the posts in this thread reminded me of a truth well established in my mind from these forums. Almost no one really wants to get questions about eschatology answered -- they want to expose another avenue for attack.

This reality is especially obvious when discussing the subjects of Dispensationalism and the Pre-Trib rapture (I'd add Calvnism, but that goes without saying). Despite a number of solid Biblical cases made by several top notch Scholars and Bible students here, those who wish to be blind simply will not see. Not on this thread, not on past threads!

Yes, I'm a Pre-tribulationist, a Dispensational Premillennialist. Is that okay, or is it heresy, evidence that I'm not really saved, and grounds for rejecting me both as a minister and as a Brother in Christ?

:tear: The divisions in the Body are so clear in the face of horrendous challenges that should be motivating our fellowship and unity -- it actually goes to prove the case for Dispensationalism -- the failure of the institutional church to accomplish its God-given mission.

Then as a fellow South Carolinian perhaps you can help a poor unlearned brother out by answering the question raised in the OP: Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise. Or like the supposed offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom am I just:BangHead: :BangHead:

 

[OldRegular]

The divisions in the Body are so clear in the face of horrendous challenges that should be motivating our fellowship and unity -- it actually goes to prove the case for Dispensationalism -- the failure of the institutional church to accomplish its God-given mission.

It seems to this poor unlearned brother that dispensationalism is teaching that Jesus Christ failed to establish an earthly Messianic Kingdom for the Jews so He established the Church instead. Next the dispensationalists is telling me that this Church is also going to fail and God is just going to snatch them away. This even though Jesus Christ said:And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Matthew 16:18]

Then we are to believe that the Jews, given a second chance, are going to come riding in on a white horse and pull all the irons out of the fire. Now where have I gone wrong. Or am I just a heretic or even worse, a liberal.

 

[Martin Luther]

Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise. Or like the supposed offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom am I just:BangHead: :BangHead:

I got this, that verse is found in....ur eh, you know, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.....



okay, well, let's just say that it is implied because hey, salvation is different in the tribulation and well, that sounds like an icky time to live. After all Christ said nothing bad will happen to those who follow Him.....right?












Okay okay, I really don't believe in two last comings, there is not one verse to be found that would indicate it exists.

 

[swaimj]

In the passage from I Thessalonians, Paul says this:

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep

What is it that Paul was afraid they were ignorant of? Of what did he inform them that they did not previously know?

 

[Amy.G]

In the passage from I Thessalonians, Paul says this:
What is it that Paul was afraid they were ignorant of? Of what did he inform them that they did not previously know?

Someone (Hymenaeus) had been telling them that the resurrection had already occurred, so they thought they had missed it.

 

[Me4Him]

Then as a fellow South Carolinian perhaps you can help a poor unlearned brother out by answering the question raised in the OP: Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise. Or like the supposed offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom am I just:BangHead: :BangHead:

A "WISE MAN", will listen/learn his opponents point of view until he is able to explain it as well, if not better, than his opponent.


If you're going to have an effective argument against your opponent's "belief", you have understand the "foundation" on which that belief is based,

Knowing the "foundation", you have a chance of destroying it, or maybe seeing a "crack" in your own "foundation".

But if you close your eyes/ears/mind, you're in the dark, all the way around. :BangHead:

 

[Martin Luther]

In the passage from I Thessalonians, Paul says this:
What is it that Paul was afraid they were ignorant of? Of what did he inform them that they did not previously know?

The resurrection of the dead to Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

In the passage from I Thessalonians, Paul says this:
What is it that Paul was afraid they were ignorant of? Of what did he inform them that they did not previously know?

I am waiting with bated breath!:sleeping_2:

 

[Tom Butler]

I had not intended to participate in this thread, but you know me, push the right buttons and you've got me.

Some random observations:

To ascribe failure to the "institutional church" is to ascribe failure to a non-existent institution.

Even if it did exist, its failure is guaranteed because the institutional "Church" doesn't do anything to advance the kingdom. Only local congregations do that.

God's purpose of grace has not failed nor will it. Not one person whom God purposes to save will be lost. John 6:37 Jesus speaking: "All (make that ALL) that the Father give to me will come I(make that WILL come) to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." This includes believing Jews.

It may appear that man has failed to carry out God's Great Commission, and it may appear that the Jews thwarted God's purpose by rejecting the Messiah. But neither Jew nor Gentile can thwart God's purpose. There is no plan B.

And finally, to swaimj, who quoted I Thessalonians 4:13 "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren...."

I once heard a preacher read it this way, "I would not have you, ignorant brethren..."

 

[swaimj]

I am waiting with bated breath!

I am waiting for you to answer these two questions, but I am not holding my breath!

 

[swaimj]

The resurrection of the dead to Christ.

All of the dead?

 

[Martin Luther]

All of the dead?

No, just the church, minus the O.T. saints who have already been resurrected.

 

[OldRegular]

In the passage from I Thessalonians, Paul says this:
What is it that Paul was afraid they were ignorant of? Of what did he inform them that they did not previously know?

I make a covenant with you. You answer the one question I asked in the OP: Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise. Or like the supposed offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom am I just:BangHead: :BangHead: .

Then I will answer both your questions.

 

[OldRegular]

A "WISE MAN", will listen/learn his opponents point of view until he is able to explain it as well, if not better, than his opponent.


If you're going to have an effective argument against your opponent's "belief", you have understand the "foundation" on which that belief is based,

Knowing the "foundation", you have a chance of destroying it, or maybe seeing a "crack" in your own "foundation".

But if you close your eyes/ears/mind, you're in the dark, all the way around. :BangHead:

Sorry Me4Him, I don't hear confessions. I can probably direct you to a forum that does if you wish.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I make a covenant with you. You answer the one question I asked in the OP: Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise. Or like the supposed offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom am I just:BangHead: :BangHead: .

Then I will answer both your questions.

Luke 19:37 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And when he was nowe come neere to the going downe of the mount of Oliues, the whole multitude of the disciples began to reioyce, and to prayse God with a loude voyce, for all the great workes that they had seene,
38 Saying, Blessed be the King that commeth in the Name of the Lord: peace in heauen, and glory in the highest places.
39 Then some of the Pharises of the companie sayd vnto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 But he answered, and sayd vnto them, I tell you, that if these should holde their peace, the stones would crie.
41 And when he was come neere, he behelde the Citie, and wept for it,
42 Saying, O if thou haddest euen knowen at the least in this thy day those things, which belong vnto thy peace! but nowe are they hid from thine eyes.
43 For the dayes shall come vpon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compasse thee round, and keepe thee in on euery side,
44 And shall make thee euen with ye ground, and thy children which are in thee, and they shall not leaue in thee a stone vpon a stone, because thou knewest not that season of thy visitation.

The pretribulation rapture2 is hidden from you and you see it not. Fortunately, unless the Lord tarries, you also will be rapture1ed right before the Tribulation Period Judgment (on the gentiles) starts. Even so, Maranatha (Oh Lord, come)

Meanwhile, on the home front, my Mommy (I'm 65-years-old), has joined Facebook and lists her 'religion' as 'Reformed Baptist'. I guess that makes me an 'unreformed baptist'?

Iffen you be 'OldRegular' then I must be ir-regular?

I like to take my half-stone, the one with a polished flat plane (for paperweight) to Church when I teach Mark 19:40. I call it my PRAISE ROCK. If I ever forget "to reioyce, and to prayse God with a loude voyce, for all the great workes that" I have seen -- that stone will cry out unto my Lord & Savior: Messiah Jesus !