Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

[OldRegular]

Ed

You still haven't answered the question in the OP!

 

[HankD]

Its already been explained OR and I admitted that it is a composite of Scripture concerning the Second Coming. Obviously you don't agree.

The removal of the children of God from the world just before the wrath of God and His final judgment (7 years) upon it has to be put together from comparing Scripture with Scripture as are many of the theological propositions in the Bible, e.g. The Trinity, the Hypostatic union of Christ and the Father.

Isaiah 28

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:​

Mathhew 13

51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.​

The closest to one verse concering the Catching Away is of course:

1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall becaught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

The ignorance of the Thessalonicans was concerning the death of those which proceeded them and their reuniting. So? This is why Paul was inspired to write this portion of the Scripture.

They will rise first then we will be caught up together with them in the clouds. Then he instructed them to comfort one another with these words.

Then in Chapter 5 he goes on to say that there are those who will not escape but sudden destruction will come upon them. Obviously that is not us because we have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air.


HankD

 

[Me4Him]

Sorry Me4Him, I don't hear confessions. I can probably direct you to a forum that does if you wish.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

No thanks, dealing with Regular old Baptist is tough enough, besides, I couldn't "Afford" to confess in one of their churches.

Have you ever made a comparsion between the conditions of the Church period and the Trib period???

 

[Plain Old Bill]

If you give a man an answer and he rejects it for any reason i.e. , he disagrees with you or just rejects it out of hand, he then pretends you have'nt answered him. Why, because he says so.​

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DOES Paul actual saying 1 Thess. 4:13-18 will be occur seven years earlier prior 'Coming'??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Plain Old Bill]

You are missing my point. If you ask me a question and I give you my answer in good faith, then I have answered your question. It is up to you to agree or disagree that is your perfect right, however the fact remains I did give you an answer. You might then say to me thanks for answering my question but I disagree with it, and then stop there or follow with your reason for not accepting my answer.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I have no problem with 1 Thess. 4:13-18. I am 100% agree with Apostle Paul, what he said. This passage is not discuss about the timing of Lord's 'coming'. This passage talks about our concern love ones who already died. Paul told us that we do not worry or sorrow over our love ones who already die. He told them, the good news is when Christ comes, all our love ones shall be risen from their graves, and then we as remain and alive will be caught up to meet our loves ones where Christ is, in the air at his coming. This is GOOD NEWS that there will be a great reunion day!

By the way, 1 Thess. 4:17-18 didn't say, after we meet Christ in the air, then Christ returns up back to third heaven again.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Samuel Owen]

Well I haven't taken a shot at this yet, so here goes. Of that day knows no man, so that means that the Bible is not going to tell you, with any exactness.

However I think that there is somewhat of an answer to the question, just not where everybody is looking.


Ah Oh, I forgot I am not supposed to be posting here. Since I am a Baptist, but not a Baptist. Excuse please.

 

[OldRegular]

Its already been explained OR and I admitted that it is a composite of Scripture concerning the Second Coming. Obviously you don't agree.

It really has not been explained Hank, in fact I don't believe there has been a serious attempt.

The closest to one verse concerning the Catching Away is of course:

1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall becaught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

The ignorance of the Thessalonicans was concerning the death of those which proceeded them and their reuniting. So? This is why Paul was inspired to write this portion of the Scripture.

They will rise first then we will be caught up together with them in the clouds. Then he instructed them to comfort one another with these words.

Hank. You correctly state that the passage you quoted is for the comfort of those who had deceased loved ones and did not understand the resurrection. However, notice that this is not a secret rapture!. The terminology used in verse 16 is almost identical to that used in Matthew 24:30, 31 which is generally conceded to be the Second Coming [Except that some preterists see it otherwise.]

Then in Chapter 5 he goes on to say that there are those who will not escape but sudden destruction will come upon them. Obviously that is not us because we have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
HankD

Hank. Assume that the general resurrection and judgment are correct. Would not the sudden destruction described in Chapter 5 better fit the final judgment of the unbeliever than a seven year tribulation period, the first half of which is supposedly when the Jews have made a pact with Somebody. Notice also that Paul speaks of no opportunity for those discussed in Chapter 5 to repent, which would not be the case during the so-called seven years of tribulation.

 

[webdog]

The secret rapture is not fiction. Shucks, it is right there on page 1269 of the Scofield Reference Bible!!!!!

Cheers,

Jim:tonofbricks:

Where do you get a "secret" rapture? It sounds like it will be a major LOUD event!

 

[OldRegular]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

No thanks, dealing with Regular old Baptist is tough enough, besides, I couldn't "Afford" to confess in one of their churches.

Have you ever made a comparsion between the conditions of the Church period and the Trib period???

I have no basis or information for making such a comparison. Jesus Christ told us: These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. [John 16:33]

Christians have always faced persecution and tribulation starting with the persecution by the Jews , continuing with the Roman Empire, followed by the Roman Catholic Church, and continues to this day.

Phillip Schaff in his History of the Christian Church details the persecution of Christians, first by the Jews and then by the Romans:

Schaff [Volume 2, page 36]

"The Jews had displayed their obstinate unbelief and bitter hatred of the Gospel in the crucifixion of Christ, the stoning of Stephen, the execution of James the Elder, the repeated incarcerations of Peter and John, the wild rage against Paul, and the murder of James the Just. No wonder that the fearful judgment of God at last visited this ingratitude upon them in the destruction of the holy city and the temple, from which the Christians found refuge in Pella,

But this tragic fate could break only the national power of the Jews, not their hatred of Christianity. They caused the death of Symeon, bishop of Jerusalem; they were particularly active in the burning of Polycarp of Smyrna; and they inflamed the violence of the Gentiles by calumniating [slandering] the sect of the Nazarenes."

Schaff [Volume 2, page 68]

"The persecution raged longest and most fiercely in the East under the rule of Galerius and his barbarous nephew Maximin Daza, who was intrusted by Diocletian before his retirement with the dignity of Caesar and the extreme command of Egypt and Syria. He issued in autumn, 308, a fifth edict of persecution, which commanded that all males with their wives and servants, and even their children, should sacrifice and actually taste the accursed offerings, and that all provisions in the markets should be sprinkled with sacrificial wine. This monstrous law introduced a reign of terror for two years, and left the Christians no alternative but apostasy[104] or starvation."


I have posted the following earlier but it is worth repeating, and this is still in the Church Age.

On the Holocaust of*Christians

July 9, 2008 at 1:21 pm (Church)

Chuck Colson has some interesting and eye-opening figures on the holocaust of Christians in the twentieth century. The article itself is dated 2002.*The estimate is that 45,000,000 Christians have been martyred in the twentieth century. According to the same estimate, the total number of Christians martyred since the time of Christ is around 70,000,000.

I*want to point out a couple of things. Firstly, such numbers, as Colson points out, do not diminish the horror of the Holocaust in the least. However, Jews should not think that they are the only ones who have been persecuted in the twentieth century. Christians have lost more than 7 times as many lives as the Jews lost in the Holocaust. Not a fact that you will hear much about in the news (nor do I particularly want it to be reported. It is not as if Christians need to brag about being persecuted).

The other thing I wish to point out is that Colson’s conclusion is not how we should pray for the church. Indeed, the Chinese church has told us differently.*Why*should we pray that persecution should be*eliminated against the church, when persecution is something we are told that we should expect? Not only that, but persecution is good for the church, eliminating nominalist “Christians.” I am not saying that persecution is a good thing, in and of itself. I am very thankful that I am not being persecuted for my faith. However, God overturns evil for*good constantly, as He has been doing all throughout history. I am raising the point only to encourage us to pray for the persecuted church. And this is how we should pray: that the church remain faithful in its witness, not compromising the truth of the Gospel for comfort’s sake.
Source:http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/on-the-holocaust-of-christians/

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Without reading anything..my vote is fiction.

 

[Me4Him]

I have no basis or information for making such a comparison. Jesus Christ told us: These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. [John 16:33]

So, you compare the "tribulations" of the Church with the "tribulations" of Daniel's last week,

Are you aware that Daniel's last week will be "Great tribulations" such as "NEVER BEEN BEFORE OR EVER WILL BE AGAIN"???

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (again)

Mr 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Can you name any other period of time when God has gave Satan "Free Reign" over the earth and all it's people???

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Do you really believe Satan will be allowed to "REIGN OVER", the "BODY OF CHRIST"??? (church)

What changes this promise from Satan fleeing from us when we resist, to Satan attacking/overcoming,

Jas 4:7 Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

We have a "contradiction" there between the church period and the tribulation period, how many more are there???

Think maybe you need to start looking??? :thumbs:

 

[HankD]

It really has not been explained Hank, in fact I don't believe there has been a serious attempt.




Hank. You correctly state that the passage you quoted is for the comfort of those who had deceased loved ones and did not understand the resurrection. However, notice that this is not a secret rapture!. The terminology used in verse 16 is almost identical to that used in Matthew 24:30, 31 which is generally conceded to be the Second Coming [Except that some preterists see it otherwise.]



Hank. Assume that the general resurrection and judgment are correct. Would not the sudden destruction described in Chapter 5 better fit the final judgment of the unbeliever than a seven year tribulation period, the first half of which is supposedly when the Jews have made a pact with Somebody. Notice also that Paul speaks of no opportunity for those discussed in Chapter 5 to repent, which would not be the case during the so-called seven years of tribulation.

I should have said "explained" from my point of view with Scripture and how I interpret those Scripture comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Rather than use the word "secret" I prefer "private". It won't be secret for long after the world wakes up to the fact that God has removed His own from the world.

When the destruction comes it will indeed be sudden or swift.
In the Book of Revelation the wrath of God begins in Chapter 16:

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.​

Up until that point (the seals and trumpets) what is happening can be called the wrath of the nations related to certain events prophesied by Christ in Matthew 24.​

However when the wrath of God begins it may only last one day against Mystery Babylon.​

Revelation 18
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.​

HankD​

 

[hawg_427]

Hey Old Regular. I just finished listening to Les Feldick on Dish Network and he back's up what he teaches with 100% Bible reference. We are in 2 Thess. right now and there are several verses that document that the " Rapture " will occur first. If that's what you mean? I will try and look in my notes to support this. I am a fairly new Christian but I am sure the Older Christians on the board could rattle off at least 5-6 verses on the top of their heads. :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

I already wrote it up

-Ed, saved 1952,
then pre-trib rapture; now pre-trib rapture

------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
in 1952 before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
not proving pretrib, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.

------------------------------

For more details of Ed's Eschatology, check out this thread:


http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854

 

[Grasshopper]

So, you compare the "tribulations" of the Church with the "tribulations" of Daniel's last week,

Where in Daniel do you find a 7 year tribulation?

Are you aware that Daniel's last week will be "Great tribulations" such as "NEVER BEEN BEFORE OR EVER WILL BE AGAIN"???

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (again)

Up until Scofield, it was pretty much common knowledge what this spoke of:

John Gill ( a pre-mill dispie)

be such as was not since the beginning of the world, to this time, no, nor ever shall be. The burning of Sodom and Gomorrha, the bondage of the children of Israel in Egypt, their captivity in Babylon, and all their distresses and afflictions in the times of the Maccabees, are nothing to be compared with the calamities which befell the Jews in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Great desolations have been made in the besieging and at the taking of many famous cities, as Troy, Babylon, Carthage, &c. but none of them are to be mentioned with the deplorable case of this city. Whoever reads Josephus's account will be fully convinced of this; and readily join with him, who was an eyewitness of it, when he says

Albert Barnes

The first thing mentioned by Luke is, that they should fall "by the edge of the sword" - that is, would be slain in war, as the sword was then principally used in war. This was most strikingly fulfilled. Josephus, in describing it, uses almost the very words of our Saviour. "All the calamities, says he, which had befallen any nation from the beginning of the world" were but small in comparison with those of the Jews. - Jewish Wars, b. i. preface, section 4.

A horrible instance of the distress of Jerusalem is related by Josephus. The famine during the siege became so great that they ate what the most sordid animals refused to touch. A woman of distinguished rank, having been plundered by the soldiers, in hunger, rage, and despair, killed and roasted her own babe, and had eaten one half of it before the deed was discovered. - Jewish Wars, b. 6 chapter 3, section 3, 4. This cruel and dreadful act was also in fulfillment of prophecy, Deu_28:53, Deu_28:56-57.

Adam Clarke
For then shall be great tribulation - No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews: - rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. St. Luke, Luk_21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled.

John Lightfoot

[Those days shall be shortened.] God lengthened the time for the sake of the elect, before the destruction of the city; and in the destruction, for their sakes he shortened it.

Spurgeon

"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred."
"The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since. Even Titus seemed to see in his cruel work the hand of an avenging God. (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412)

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
I have no basis or information for making such a comparison. Jesus Christ told us: These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. [John 16:33]

Originally Posted by Me4Him
So, you compare the "tribulations" of the Church with the "tribulations" of Daniel's last week,

Daniels Last Week

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Persecution under Nero

According to the Roman historian Tacitus:
Besides being put to death they [the Christians] were made to serve as objects of amusement; they were clad in the hides of beast and torn to death by dogs; others were crucified, others set on fire to serve to illuminate the night when daylight failed. Nero had thrown open his grounds for the display, and was putting on a show in the circus, where he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or drove about in his chariot. All this gave rise to a feeling of pity, even toward men whose guilt merited the most exemplary punishment; for it was felt that they were being destroyed not for the public good but to satisfy the cruelty of an individual. [Nero]

Source: http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/history/persecution.htm

I don’t know but Daniel doesn’t sound so bad to me, particularly since I doubt you know what it means.

Originally Posted by Me4Him
Are you aware that Daniel's last week will be "Great tribulations" such as "NEVER BEEN BEFORE OR EVER WILL BE AGAIN"???

That is not what Daniel says.

Originally Posted by Me4Him
Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (again)


Mr 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Jesus Christ is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in this passage. If He was talking about your great tribulation what difference would the place where you were, what you were doing, the time of the year, etc., make [Verses 16-20 particularly if it is going to last 7 years.

Originally Posted by Me4Him
Can you name any other period of time when God has gave Satan "Free Reign" over the earth and all it's people???

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Do you really believe Satan will be allowed to "REIGN OVER", the "BODY OF CHRIST"??? (church)

What changes this promise from Satan fleeing from us when we resist, to Satan attacking/overcoming,

I believe you recently criticized me for not knowing the difference between literal interpretation and symbolic interpretation. Most of the Book of Revelation is written in symbolic language, particularly Chapters 4-19. An attempt to apply a literal interpretation throughout is foolish.

Originally Posted by Me4Him
Jas 4:7 Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

We have a "contradiction" there between the church period and the tribulation period, how many more are there???

Think maybe you need to start looking???

I believe you need to quit reading dispensational fiction. I will bet you have LeHaye’s fictional series Left Behind.

A serious question for all dispensationalists: Why would Jesus Christ give a Revelation to the Church consisting of 22 chapters when only 5 and 1/2 apply to the Church. Doesn’t make sense does it?

 

[OldRegular]

Hey Old Regular. I just finished listening to Les Feldick on Dish Network and he back's up what he teaches with 100% Bible reference. We are in 2 Thess. right now and there are several verses that document that the " Rapture " will occur first. If that's what you mean? I will try and look in my notes to support this. I am a fairly new Christian but I am sure the Older Christians on the board could rattle off at least 5-6 verses on the top of their heads. :thumbs:

They haven't yet!:sleeping_2:

 

[Ed Edwards]

About 1964 (long after John McGill) it became possible for human beings to do everything in Bible Prophecy (especially the bad things in Revelaiton) EXCEPT the resurrection1 and the Rapture1. Mankind can kill everybody in the world but can't bring people back to life very well. (BTW, it was probably about 1972 before I found out about the 1964 status. The reduction in nuclear weapons of the USofA, Russia, and China in the past 12 years moved mankind from the status where they could destroy all human life on the planet only 3 times instead of 24 - and do it more efficiently.) Sorry, But John McGill was wrong about the events of AD 67-71 being the worse thing that ever happened to the Jews. In both 67-71 1/3 of the Jews were Killed, but the same percentage were killed in the Holocaust 1939-1945 - but then it was 6 Million People not just one Million.

BTW, these guys should have known about the Black Plague (25 Million dead in Europe - 1/4 of the population), Attalia the Hun (20 Million dead in Europe - 1/4 of the population), The Rise of Islam (1/4 of the Orthodox Christians - nearly destroyed the largest group of Christians in the 1200s - The East Syran Church)

In the Tribulation ON GENTILES that is coming, 1/3 of the people will die TWICE. Remember your fractions, one-third is greather than one-fourth.