Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

[Todd W. White]

Allan is right - LaHaye was brought in to make sure the fictional story line didn't go against Scripture.

Unfortunately, literary license overruled that, seeing as how the main character heard the Gospel BEFORE the Rapture, then got saved AFTER the Rapture, something that the Bible says won't happen:

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (II Thessalonians 2:11).

 

[webdog]

Please, OldRegular, don't judge all disp. by LaHaye. I never read a single one of his books. I didn't see "The Passion" either, for the same reason. I don't want man's images of what happened or might happen in my head.

...but isn't this what happens when we form our own conclusions?

 

[Palatka51]

Allan is right - LaHaye was brought in to make sure the fictional story line didn't go against Scripture.

Unfortunately, literary license overruled that, seeing as how the main character heard the Gospel BEFORE the Rapture, then got saved AFTER the Rapture, something that the Bible says won't happen:

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (II Thessalonians 2:11).

Amen, Todd! :thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

Allan is right - LaHaye was brought in to make sure the fictional story line didn't go against Scripture.

Unfortunately, literary license overruled that, seeing as how the main character heard the Gospel BEFORE the Rapture, then got saved AFTER the Rapture, something that the Bible says won't happen:

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (II Thessalonians 2:11).

I don't understand! You say

Unfortunately, literary license overruled that, seeing as how the main character heard the Gospel BEFORE the Rapture, then got saved AFTER the Rapture, something that the Bible says won't happen:

However, others on this Forum have declared that those who are saved during the so-called great tribulation are immediately killed.

Which is it?

 

[Palatka51]

However, others on this Forum have declared that those who are saved during the so-called great tribulation are immediately killed.

Which is it?

Revelation 16:10&11
10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
However, others on this Forum have declared that those who are saved during the so-called great tribulation are immediately killed.

Which is it?

Response Posted by Palatka51
Revelation 16:10&11
10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

That is certainly not the description of one who has been saved!

 

[Ed Edwards]

I don't understand! You say

However, others on this Forum have declared that those who are saved during the so-called great tribulation are immediately killed.

Which is it?

Both, read my trailer:

 

[Ed Edwards]

All VALID English Language Bibles
Collectively and Individually
contain and are
the Inerrant and Perfect
Written Word of God
preserved by Divine Appointment
for the generation in which they are translated.

IMHO the way to deal with any apparent conflict (error, disagreement) in the Scripture (within two parts of one Version or between Versions) is to assume GOD DID NOT PUT IT THERE.

Under mutual trust working together among Brothers in Christ it is quite possible to figure out what the Truth is among those passages (within one translation or among translations or even among 'word definitions') by checking out the posibility both understandings are correct.

What Me4Him and I did in the Middle of 2005 was he had some charts, I had some words. We checked each other together, we compared why (which scriptures mean what) and so forth. Then Brother Me4Him made an adjustment or two to his charts and I made an adjustment or two to my writings. Both non-scripture products were me better when we both studied the scriptures together figured out what it was the other was saying. Both my Ministry for God and the Ministry of Brother Me4Him was enhanced because we shared with each other. We still don't agree on all points, but we do have respect each for the Scriptural Teaching of the other.

 

[Me4Him]

That is certainly not the description of one who has been saved!

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were,........ should be fulfilled.

The Church, "Spiritually" destroys the "Body of sin" (FLESH) when we're saved because Jesus has already suffer the "Chastisement" of our peace with God by the "STRIPES" in his "FLESH".

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

This "Chastisement/Stripes" Jesus suffer for believers, Israel will "LITERALLY" suffer in their own flesh, "IF" they chose to believe.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, (body of sin) that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Either way, spiritually or literally, the Body of sin (flesh) must die if anyone is to be saved.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Revelation 16:10&11
10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Elder Brother OldRegular:
// That is certainly not the description of one who has been saved! //

Wow! Brother Elder OldRegular - you still have a quick mind. This is about people who are in the Tribulation Period and DO NOT GET SAVED.

Here is a scripture about people in the Tribulation who DO GET SAVED:
< I don't seem to find where it is referenced by any a-mill, I'll have to search more Here is one that is real close: >

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.

The Woman is the Church (which in the Tribulation period is National Israel). "Time, and times, and half a time" are 1+2+1/2 = 3-1/2 years - the last half of Daniel's 70th week. The Lord saves all the Israeli saved at the Tribulation Judgement Period 's Mid-week Crisis. Saved Israeli get saved (from death) in the Tribulation Judgement Period latter week. These were NOT saved at the beginning of Tribulation Judgment Period. Again, not one scripture, but a whole host of scriptures.


And you ask:

Todd W. White[/B]]
Unfortunately, literary license overruled that, seeing as how the main character heard the Gospel BEFORE the Rapture, then got saved AFTER the Rapture, something that the Bible says won't happen:
However, others on this Forum have declared that those who are saved during the so-called great tribulation are immediately killed.

OldRegular:
// Which is it? //

Well, we have two seeming 'conflicting readings of scripture'. God didn't make the conflict. There is no conflict. How to you figure it out, Brother Elder OldRegular?

(Again, sorry, I have responsibilities and there are lot better verses that clearer that say people will be saved in the Tribulation Judgment Period.

 

[Ed Edwards]

People will be saved in the Tribulation

Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.

& connects two similar sets of People
(Both groups were saved by confessing Jesus as Lord while believing in their heart that G-d raised up Jesus from the dead.)

1. The people John "saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them".

These are the people saved at the beginning of the Day of the Lord (Daniel's 70th week) from the CHURCH1 (mostly Gentile saved, redeemed, elect saints). These are the raptured2 (/resurrected1/raptured1) at the beginning of the Tribulation Period Judgment by Jesus. They (includes at least the disciples and probably the outstanding Christians of all time [outstanding Christian = the most 'in Christ'], at most every member of the were rewarded by being in the Millennial Messianic Kingdom for judging the CHURCH2 (Jewish &/or Israeli elect saints Church). These people are NOT saved during the Tribulation Judgment Period.

and the similar set of people:

2. I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.

These are the saved from the Tribulation Judgment Period. Some Gloriously Saved Dispensation Teachers say that there will not be a second chance for GENTILES only who heard about Messiah Jesus and His saving blood before the start of the Tribulation Judgment Period - i.e. Gentiles will not be saved during the Tribulation. (I'm still working on this part, one of God's attributes that I find in Scripture is that God is the God of second chances. But I sure would not let the salvation of my eternal soul rest on the hope that God would give me a second chance during the Tribulation Judgment Period. I KNOW by Faith that the Lord will save me now in the Church age If I meet His conditions.

But there will be Israeli/Jewish folk who are saved in Tribulation Judgment Period. Will the Israeli/Jewish be some who get their heads chopped off. We know some Israeli/Jewish will be saved in the wilderness from the Antichrist who likes to chop off Christian heads.

The folks who are NOT pre-trib rapture2 (who believe in a literal Tribulation Judgment Period) believers - they say that will be the only way to get to heaven - get your head chopped off .

The folks who are NOT pre-trib rapture2 (who DO NOT believe in a literal Tribulation Judgment Period, but that NOW is the Spiritual Tribulation) believers -- it is hard to know what they think, it is easier to sew two halvs of a worm back together than to figure out what they believe. DO A-mill, A-trib folks think today the only way to get saved NOW to get your head chopped off? I'd hate to be an a-mill a-trib person if that is the only way to (spiritually speaking) to get saved (spiritually speaking) from the Tribulation (spirtually speaking is NOW). Nah, I'll stick with the Church Age being now and ending at the pre-tribulation rapture2 of the Church1.


Do you (anybody) believe that one of the Gifts of the Spirit is Martyrdom? (both Yes & No answers from the Scripture or otherwise solicited. Thank You).

 

[Marcia]

...but isn't this what happens when we form our own conclusions?

But forming my own conclusions from God's word is not the same as putting the pictures from someone else's conclusions or guessing into my head.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia those books are written to BE fictional regarding the 'details' and personal stories of what happens during the Tribulation beyond the scriptural outline already given to us. They use scripture as the outline to their story. Lahey work in this is not the fictional aspect but keeping the fiction from going outside of the scriptures outline for the Tribulation.

But God does not flesh out the details for us -- we don't know exactly what all those things mean in the Bible as far as what the tribulation will be like and all that goes with it. Someone writing a book on that would have to come up with his own idea of it.

I am not saying he shouldn't have written the books or that people shouldn't read them, just that I don't want to read them.

 

[Allan]

Allan is right - LaHaye was brought in to make sure the fictional story line didn't go against Scripture.

Unfortunately, literary license overruled that, seeing as how the main character heard the Gospel BEFORE the Rapture, then got saved AFTER the Rapture, something that the Bible says won't happen:

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (II Thessalonians 2:11).

Well, I agree and don't agree with the above.

Just because a person resists the gospel does not necessiate they automatically are damned. I rejected the gospel yet later on the Lord saved me. We must remember that the rejection spoken of in scripture that is a damning rejection is one in which the Lord gives them over to their sins because they will have nothing else. Only God knows whether they are completely rejecting or temporarily rejecting it (for whatever reasons) and this is spoke of in both Rom 1:18-32 and 2 Thes 2:10-12.

Therefore it still has not gone against scripture in this as far as I know. But then again I have not read the books either.

 

[Allan]

But God does not flesh out the details for us -- we don't know exactly what all those things mean in the Bible as far as what the tribulation will be like and all that goes with it. Someone writing a book on that would have to come up with his own idea of it.

I am not saying he shouldn't have written the books or that people shouldn't read them, just that I don't want to read them.

I believe that God 'does' give us 'certain' details and even specific details on some things about what is to or will happen.

The literary writing here nothing more than what other christians have done in writting fictional stories about what they understand, not so much to develope a theology even if it uses a theological premise to do such.

I to have never read them nor do I care to. I am to much a stickler for details and when you've read the movie never compares. (so to speak )

 

[Amy.G]

But God does not flesh out the details for us -- we don't know exactly what all those things mean in the Bible as far as what the tribulation will be like and all that goes with it. Someone writing a book on that would have to come up with his own idea of it.

I am not saying he shouldn't have written the books or that people shouldn't read them, just that I don't want to read them.

You are right Marcia that books can put stuff in our heads that we'd rather not be there. I have read 8 of the Left Behind books and what I read in them is exactly the same thing that I have read on the BB regarding pre-mil/pre-trib doctrines. Only the character names are different. :tongue3:

 

[Todd W. White]

I think most everyone resists the Holy Spirit the first time they hear His call to salvation - resisting Him one time too many (and only He knows how many times that is) is the Unpardonable Sin.

But- I'm not saying that this verse teaches that those who resist the Holy Spirit are damned. What I believe is that this is speaking of the Tribulation era: those who have heard the Gospel prior to the Rapture and reject it will not be able to be saved after the Rapture because they will believe the lie that the AC is the Messiah.

Incidentally, and I don't know if anyone's mentioned this or not, but, in addition to the saved of the Church era, those who have not yet reached what the theolog's call The Age of Accountability will be taken away prior to the Rapture, also.

This is a great comfort for those who may be bringing children into this world - you know they'll be safe until the Rapture, and, if they get old enough to be saved, if you do your job as their parents, they'll be saved in time before it's too late.

This is a problem for those who believe that the Church goes through all or part of the Tribulation - if you believe you're going to do so, why on earth would you want to bring children into it?

 

[Marcia]

You are right Marcia that books can put stuff in our heads that we'd rather not be there. I have read 8 of the Left Behind books and what I read in them is exactly the same thing that I have read on the BB regarding pre-mil/pre-trib doctrines. Only the character names are different. :tongue3:

I hope you are not deciding on Dispensationalism based on fictional books, or even from what is posted on the BB, (though I agree with many things that are said)! The BB is not the place to get theology - maybe resources sometimes and a place to hone skills in defending your view - but not a place to get your theology. :wavey:

 

[Amy.G]

I hope you are not deciding on Dispensationalism based on fictional books, or even from what is posted on the BB, (though I agree with many things that are said)! The BB is not the place to get theology - maybe resources sometimes and a place to hone skills in defending your view - but not a place to get your theology. :wavey:

True. But having read those books and another one by Tim LaHaye (Are we in the end times?) and reading about Disp.ism on the BB is what has led to my confusion on the subject. I have never been able to make sense of this doctrine.

 

[Marcia]

True. But having read those books and another one by Tim LaHaye (Are we in the end times?) and reading about Disp.ism on the BB is what has led to my confusion on the subject. I have never been able to make sense of this doctrine.

I think you're confused because you're using books by LaHaye and discussions on the BB. I don't know if LaHaye is a theologian or not - maybe he's not the best one to explain. Get those books I recommended once to you on the different endtime views.

Also, the Kay Arthur study of Daniel and Revelation are helpful (2 separate studies - this will take time; however, studying this topic does take time, it can't be done in a couple of hours or even a couple of weeks).

I was very confused about endtimes when I became a believer and put it all on the shelf for years while I learned the Bible better and got grounded in the basics first. So I only started to get more into studying endtime beliefs in the past 3 or 4 years. Romans 9-11 helped me. I'm still studying (though not at the moment).

Are we in the end times? No one can know that. I am skeptical of claims that try to convince us we are. Sometimes I think we are and other times, not. I tend to think things will get a lot worse first.

We are in the last days because those began when Jesus came. But we don't know how long the "last days" are.