Did Gerstner cite where he got the story?
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Pre-Trib Rapture
- Thread starter Ruiz
- Start date
Did Gerstner cite where he got the story?
I am not certain on this point and it appeared to be from a personal experience. I know they knew each other and while Friends may be overstating their relationship, they were friendly towards one another.
As I suspected, Gerstner fails to cite this story:
Absolutely no documentation or footnote.
He doesn't say "he told me", he uses the exceedingly vague "who is said to have. . ."
Puzzling
Absolutely no documentation or footnote.
He doesn't say "he told me", he uses the exceedingly vague "who is said to have. . ."
Puzzling
Scriptures cited
revelation 3:7-13
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Matthew 24:44
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
1 Thes 4:16-18
It all comes down to biblical interpretation, as if one holds to dispy viewpoint, very clearly taught, if Covenant, not so Much!
The Church NOT appointed unto wrath of God, as will be in the Great tribualtion, time of Jacobs Folly, when national isreal goes thru to prepare them for Messiah Jesus returning to earth, and we are told to expect the rapture at any time!
As I suspected, Gerstner fails to cite this story:
Absolutely no documentation or footnote.
He doesn't say "he told me", he uses the exceedingly vague "who is said to have. . ."
Puzzling
Rereading it, you are right, this may not be the most accurate quotation. There seems vagueness even in the statement. Yet, I agree that it is not found in the Bible either.
. But probably not the best citation in the world
Greektim
Well-Known Member
But these verses don't go into proving a tribulation of 7 years. Where is that ever mentioned???
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Then does not NCT suffer from the same problem mentioned many times here, that it cannot be true if it is new?
But to address your comments, unless you are a complete liberal, which you just might be, then you must be a covenant dude to be a-mil or else you have no real theological underpinnings to your doctrine. Liberals don't care about this detail so maybe that is why you protest.
I have read the book New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells, Fred Zaspel to get an idea of NCT and those two are reformed covenant to the core.
Mathew 24 fits the attack of the Roman's on Israel in 90 A.D. It also says one person will be left and to run for the mountains. Why would you do this if you are going to be in the rapture. Strangely 1/2 of the Jews got killed in this battle the ones who survived went to the mountains and Petra area.
The churches mentioned in the first of Revelation say NOTHING about an age of what the churches are like. But, they are specific to a trade-route during John's time. Also, 666 is Greek for NERO since Greek numbers are all have numbers and they total 666 and he was considered the anti-christ at this time.
Oh and Mathew 24 also says this generation shall not pass before these things take place and we have to look at who the writer was talking to. . . early Christian Jews. 90 A.D. would be about a generation from the time Mathew was written.
Some pastor tried to get me to add up some OT numbers and come up with the seven years in months, but it never made sense to me and I'm an engineer and it just doesn't work, but that could be my sense of math.
I believe Jesus will return ONCE after He went to heaven after His ressurection. This is plain in the Bible and a rapture would be coming to Earth twice once at the first of a tribulation and one at the end before the millineum. (sp?)
The churches mentioned in the first of Revelation say NOTHING about an age of what the churches are like. But, they are specific to a trade-route during John's time. Also, 666 is Greek for NERO since Greek numbers are all have numbers and they total 666 and he was considered the anti-christ at this time.
Oh and Mathew 24 also says this generation shall not pass before these things take place and we have to look at who the writer was talking to. . . early Christian Jews. 90 A.D. would be about a generation from the time Mathew was written.
Some pastor tried to get me to add up some OT numbers and come up with the seven years in months, but it never made sense to me and I'm an engineer and it just doesn't work, but that could be my sense of math.
I believe Jesus will return ONCE after He went to heaven after His ressurection. This is plain in the Bible and a rapture would be coming to Earth twice once at the first of a tribulation and one at the end before the millineum. (sp?)
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Mr Moderator, If you are going to be a preterist, at least get your dates correct. It's AD 70 not AD 90.
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Greektim
Well-Known Member
Then you've not really carefully read that book. NCT is not covenant theology. They for the most part arrive at the same conclusions, but they get there differently. I don't hold to the theological covenants of grace, redemption, or works. I do see the Scriptures unfold its drama through covenants. I see the covenants all being an outworking of the Abrahamic covenant (even Sinaii). But much of my views are based on a biblical theological assessment rather than a systematic one. Diachronically and thematically is a much better approach I think than synchronic preconcieved doctrines and prooftexting. And I don't critique dispieism b/c it is new. Plus I would say that NCT is not new, but just a fresh recognition of what was always apostolic. But I'm sure you would say similar about dispieism.
Just was referencing verses that 'seem" to support view of an immenent rapture, distinct from the physical second coming of Christ to the earth at end times!
The 7 year trib view found in daniel 9:22-27, again its a matter of biblical interpretation!
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I really like your analysis here [except I also believe it to have been 70AD]; one thought about Matthew 24 concerning "this generation", the Scripture says:
Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
My question is: Can this be interpreted [the fig tree putting forth its leaves] as Israel becoming a nation again [in 1948]? If so, then we could be now be in the "generation of the fig tree" awaiting His return.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
I completely agree it is a matter of interpretation. My problem is that there is nothing that says "7 years." So there is a lot of qualifying and vacillating going on.
Do you hold to a physical resurrection for the dead in Christ? that jesus will return to set up the Kingdom of God fully upon the earth?
As we have NEVER had that happen yet during the Church time!
beameup
Member
A better question is "where is the Gentile Bride of Christ" mentioned in the scriptures. Shall we say that since it is nowhere found in the Old Testament that such a thing does not exist?
Now can we also conclude that Jesus Christ wants his Bride to be beaten and punished and even martyred prior to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb when he is joined to his Bride?
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Ephesians 3:1-6
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:8-9
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:52-53
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
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I agree....