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Pre-Trib Rapture
- Thread starter Ruiz
- Start date
Me too, he just needs to back his dating up about 20 yrs to 70 A.D......
Right. I agree.
Sorry for Getting Ahead of Myself...
....still, this is not an answer, it is more of a question. I'd like to know how many believers are truly ready for what happens next if the rapture is in fact delayed.
If God didn't spare His people and those in the NT from death, torture, and imprisonment, what makes us think we may be able to avoid or miss the events of the last days?
....still, this is not an answer, it is more of a question. I'd like to know how many believers are truly ready for what happens next if the rapture is in fact delayed.
If God didn't spare His people and those in the NT from death, torture, and imprisonment, what makes us think we may be able to avoid or miss the events of the last days?
Greektim
Well-Known Member
But you are presuming a 7 year hell-on-earth scenario that doesn't really have much biblical support. So the time of the rapture around those 7 years becomes moot. If there is no 7 year terror fest, then the timing of the rapture just does not matter b/c it doesn't exist.
I Suppose You Are Correct About One Thing!
All of us, including you, are spinning our theological wheels in the mud, when it comes to the exact point in time of when the rapture takes place. Since the term rapture is not even in the Bible, I would have to say that both of us are "assuming" a lot more than what we can actually prove.
Can we both agree that we will one day, either individually, or collectively, be taken to heaven? What takes before, during, or after that time of being caught up, is more speculation than it is actual knowledge.
Shalom :flower:
All of us, including you, are spinning our theological wheels in the mud, when it comes to the exact point in time of when the rapture takes place. Since the term rapture is not even in the Bible, I would have to say that both of us are "assuming" a lot more than what we can actually prove.
Can we both agree that we will one day, either individually, or collectively, be taken to heaven? What takes before, during, or after that time of being caught up, is more speculation than it is actual knowledge.
Shalom :flower:
Does one believe in the Body of Christ? Then we must believe in the Rapture. Why? Because the Rapture applies only to those in the Body of Christ. Does this not make necessary those who believe this to automatically be predisposed to pre-mil, and pre-trib? Perhaps not, but I don't see how we can believe the gospel as shown to be Paul's, should they believe otherwise.
When we see scripture tells us the Body of Christ is for real we then realize this was not to be known. This is not in prophecy.
Then we are told about the rapture. This is not in prophecy.
To me, scripture indicates a fulfillment of I Thes. 4:13-18 with the rapture of those in the Body of Christ, which was before a mystery in God. I personally believe the gospel of Paul, which was given to him by Jesus Christ in heaven. I also believe, and find comfort in II Thes. 2:15-17, where we can find, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17. Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work."
So I find Paul is saying something completely New, and prophesying of, and about the Body of Christ. This must mean we will not be on this earth when the great tribulation comes. Is He going to pour out His wrath on those in His Body? The Church today is not the Temple Church of His People. As this must be so, we can rest assured we will not be in what is prophesied in the book of Revelation. God told Daniel to go his way, for the words are sealed to the end. Daniels address is intended to inform God's chosen people.
Today God has laid it all out to us. Now the purpose of God has been accomplished in Jesus Christ, and the end is in sight. So God had John reopen Daniel at the stopping point. He is again speaking to His chosen people. So here we are again in prophecy in Revelation to His people Israel, of what will befall them, and then comes back in His Wrath on them, and all others on the earth.
Will some get their wish, e.g., not distinguishing between the rapture, and the first resurrection that we see in Revelation? Will one be left alone when He that lets, is taken out of the way?
convicted1
Guest
Okay Brothers and Sisters, here goes. Y'all have this all wrong if you think that the Kingdom will be set up here on earth. Here is where Jesus stated that the Kingdom is now.
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
When you are saved, God places the Kingdom in you, and is now reigning over you from heaven.
When He comes in the Cloud, He will gather His children from all the earth and take them Home for eternity.
I Thess. 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Now, look at this passage in 1 Coronithians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The new body we get is what I bolded. When we die, our natural body goes in the ground. When Jesus comes to call us out of the ground, when we come out, we will appear as He is.
1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 Cor. 15:51-58
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Now, when Jesus comes, this world we live on now, will be burned up, and her works with it.
2 Peter 3:7-18
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
This world is going "bye bye" when the Lord comes to gather His children. When He calls my name, I will join Him in the Cloud, and He's going to take me Home. And Home sure ain't here.
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
When you are saved, God places the Kingdom in you, and is now reigning over you from heaven.
When He comes in the Cloud, He will gather His children from all the earth and take them Home for eternity.
I Thess. 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Now, look at this passage in 1 Coronithians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The new body we get is what I bolded. When we die, our natural body goes in the ground. When Jesus comes to call us out of the ground, when we come out, we will appear as He is.
1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 Cor. 15:51-58
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Now, when Jesus comes, this world we live on now, will be burned up, and her works with it.
2 Peter 3:7-18
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
This world is going "bye bye" when the Lord comes to gather His children. When He calls my name, I will join Him in the Cloud, and He's going to take me Home. And Home sure ain't here.
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First of all, I'm not a preterist---I'm simply making some comments that have to be overcome and it is easy to hit 9 on this machine as with any other number considering it is not normally used for moderating.
Its funny how when you say preterist it is as if you are a heathen.
Yes, you could very well be correct. I simply threw out some issues that have always bothered me and that is what we are looking for is the interretation of the original text and what it means to us today. I did not mean to lay out an absolute conclusion; simply point out some questions I have had trouble answering and yes, that is a very good interpretation which could fit the bill. I did not grow up as a preterest, but in trying to justify the pre-trib rapture, I have found the Bible lacking in clear descriptions in this area. I am not a Biblical 'future-world' expert and simply throwing out some remarks that seem to be taken out of context when Mathew 24 is read in its entirety. It appears there is some discussion relating to the people Jesus is talking to and to the future; but, which is which? That's my only point.
I had a pastor come in (well, he's not a pastor, but he fills in for some pastors at small churches sometimes; who came into the church building one Sunday talking about a new evil theology called 'preterism' that is destroying many Baptist churches. One church in Colorodo split over this. I would say that if the church split over this issue, the water runs deeper and there are more problems there than just the date of the rapture/tribulation. But, I often get the same reaction as being called "Mr. Preterest" and I do not do a good job at memorizing dates that I don't often use. Thank you for the response you gave and the manner in which it was given. That's how Christians should debate these issues. Have a good day. :thumbsup:
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Actually, I am not an advocate of the platonic concept of some ethereal place where we will be spending eternity. My destination is not heaven above but the recreated heavens and earth in the New Jerusalem in a resurrected body.
However, I also believe the language of gathering from the 4 corners of the world and similar are soteriological in nature referencing the blessing of the nations and ingathering of the nations. So for Paul to use that theme in 1 Thess 4 is no big deal either. God is gathering from the entire planet those whom he has called. Call that a rapture if you like.
My point is, if there is no tribulation like the dispos believe, then there is no need of this thing called the rapture.
That has it's roots in the failure to make a clear distinction between partial and full preterism. It would be immense benefit for anyone if they were to incorporate the 'preterist modifier' into thier hermeneutics.
I understand there is a lot of debate concerning this [had this discussion with other brothers and sisters more than once]; however, there are many [including myself] who would differ in opinion with you.
Revelation 21:1-2 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
So I think you are half right--this old earth is going to have to be renovated to receive the city built by God [also, whether you consider the New Jerusalem a city as I do, or the Church, it still is to be placed here in the New Earth]
When you say Kingdom, isn't the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven 2 different things?
So when we die, in your opinion, where are we? Lazarus, in Luke 16, seems to be with Abraham--[the rich man, not so much]
Yes, we shall be changed, but until then, we aren't in a hole in the ground.
Amen!!
Again, from my earlier statement, it seems as though the New earth is right here where the old one was, just my [and many others] opinion.
God bless
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Even those in academic dispensationalism critique the view that distinguishes between the K of God and the K of heaven. The real question is, "What does the word 'kingdom' actually mean?" For me, it primarily means reign or rulership or kingship mostly because that is the primary meaning of the word, not a locale or kingdom (though it can mean that on occasion).I understand there is a lot of debate concerning this [had this discussion with other brothers and sisters more than once]; however, there are many [including myself] who would differ in opinion with you.
Revelation 21:1-2 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
So I think you are half right--this old earth is going to have to be renovated to receive the city built by God [also, whether you consider the New Jerusalem a city as I do, or the Church, it still is to be placed here in the New Earth]
When you say Kingdom, isn't the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven 2 different things?
So when we die, in your opinion, where are we? Lazarus, in Luke 16, seems to be with Abraham--[the rich man, not so much]
Yes, we shall be changed, but until then, we aren't in a hole in the ground.
Amen!!
Again, from my earlier statement, it seems as though the New earth is right here where the old one was, just my [and many others] opinion.
Believe that GE ladd had this right concerning the coming of the Kingdom of God/Heaven in his NT Theology...
That in the person/ministry of Jesu the Kingdom had come to earth in His bodily form, and from that point on, whenever another person is saved, healed, taught etc that is the future aspect of the Kingdom "breaking into" this present Age..
So view this as being here/not here yet status...
The Kingdom is here now partially, and added to daily, its just when jesus comes back to reign on earth, that is when it FULL application will happen, and the messainiac Kingdom from say Isaiah willne finally realised!
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Well of course! That is key!
thomas15
Well-Known Member
The K of God or the K of heaven. Which one does Jesus rule with an Iron Scepter?
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Are you referring to a particular passage??? Where is iron scepter in the Bible?
isn;'t that found in the Messianic psalms?
Where the Lord was saying NOT to depise the rule of the King, His Son?
psalm 2?
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Rev 2:27 ‘ He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
Psalm 2
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Like I was saying, no "iron scepter."