I think what Brother Steve means is that Walvoord stated there wasn’t a pre-trib rapture explicitly taught in the scriptures. Not that he couldn’t find a Trib/GT.
I think “Our Blessed Hope” by Ladd exposes that as being true.
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Pre Tribulation Rapture Questions
- Thread starter Steve of Brownsburg
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I think “Our Blessed Hope” by Ladd exposes that as being true.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
As one who doesn't believe in the Rapture at all, I would like to offer my view on the passages in this discussion.
Steve brought up the possibility that Paul may have been addressing those who have died in the Lord. This is the view that I believe. The "hope" that Paul refers to in 1 Thes. 4:13 is the Resurrection of the dead. Going down to verse 15, Paul talks about "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord". This is the raising of those who are in Christ. "Those who are asleep" are the dead saints of the Old Covenant age who are in Sheol. Regarding the timing, I don't believe that Christians will literally rise up from the grave, but that they go to the presence of the Lord. Before Jesus was resurrected, all believers went to Sheol / Paradise / Abraham's Bosom. Now our spirits go directly to Him.
I believe Matthew 24 speaks of the Tribulation that the 1st Century Christians would experience during the Jewish Wars (AD 66-70), which is why He prophesied the destruction of the Temple in verse 2. The Jews and followers of Christ went through this tribulation.
Like Steve, I am just here for discussion, not to get into an argument. Whether or not you agree with my view is okay.
Steve brought up the possibility that Paul may have been addressing those who have died in the Lord. This is the view that I believe. The "hope" that Paul refers to in 1 Thes. 4:13 is the Resurrection of the dead. Going down to verse 15, Paul talks about "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord". This is the raising of those who are in Christ. "Those who are asleep" are the dead saints of the Old Covenant age who are in Sheol. Regarding the timing, I don't believe that Christians will literally rise up from the grave, but that they go to the presence of the Lord. Before Jesus was resurrected, all believers went to Sheol / Paradise / Abraham's Bosom. Now our spirits go directly to Him.
I believe Matthew 24 speaks of the Tribulation that the 1st Century Christians would experience during the Jewish Wars (AD 66-70), which is why He prophesied the destruction of the Temple in verse 2. The Jews and followers of Christ went through this tribulation.
Like Steve, I am just here for discussion, not to get into an argument. Whether or not you agree with my view is okay.
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I've read all of Walvoord and I love the man for his teaching. I've never read him saying that there isn't a pretrib. rapture.
Maybe you could tell us where and when he wrote this.
In the book of revelations John speakes of it first. Rev. 1:7 Before the tribulation. Most prophecy in the Bible are spoken of in the order in which they happen.
MB
I think just about all second comings views had some degree of support the scriptures . except for full blown preterism!
Lodic
Well-Known Member
As a Partial Preterist, I completely concur. Of course, our "Full Preterist" friends would probably disagree. Comes down to interpretation, I guess.
They deny the physical resurrection, which always has been held by the Orthodox Church!
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I take it you mean the physical resurrection of believers as opposed to that of Jesus. On that point, I must admit some confusion. I mean, don't the spirits of all who die before Christ returns go straight to Heaven? Is everyone going to receive a new physical body with His return?
Not really. The 3 1/2 years of peace and safety is also part of the Great Tribulation because it is intended to lull you to sleep in order to tighten the grip of the anti-Christ.
When you say that you don't believe in the rapture, do you mean that you don't believe in the Second Advent, the Blessed Hope, the return of Jesus to earth?
Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z
Christians have for two thousand years believed that the return of Jesus was to rescue Christians from the Anti-Christ and to put an end to the Great Tribulation. The pre-trib doctrine began about two hundred years ago and is strongest in the USA among Fundamentalists and Pentecostals and some Evangelicals. I think that pre-trib preaching is so boring that whenever a TV preacher starts that I tend to turn him off. I don't care what they believe but I get tired of hearing it since there never is an intelligent discussion of the question for the most part. Pre-tribbers just get insulting and say that they will be gone but you can be left for all they care. I think that they will be gone, too, sometimes, but that is not very nice so I retract my thoughts. Revelation 20:2 (KJV) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, That verse refers to the lockup of Satan at the end of the Great Tribulation and is tied to the first Resurrection Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
How can you sleep through all this unsafety and war?
I thought meant no Rapture as in pre Trib one?
I thought that Rapture is just a synonym for the Blessed Hope, Matthew 25:31 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I definitely believe in the Second Advent, when Jesus will physically return to Earth some day. I don't believe that all the Christians alive at His Coming will be "raptured" away like in the "Left Behind" series, where they will disappear and "join the Lord in the air".
I admit I believe in a pretrib rapture. The Bible doesn't say when the rapture will happen. No one is suppose to know, other wise he can't come like a theif in the night. The coming of Christ is imminent. We are instructed to keep watch and I do. Maybe more than I should. I've had dreams about it because I think about it most every day. Maybe that's just a natural effect of being hopeful. When men get to be my age and they're saved. They know they will be with the Lord soon enough any way rapture or not.I'm looking forward to it.
MB
I agree with that except that the believers left the city when Cestius surrounded it. All those whose names were in the book were saved. Daniel 12:1
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Yes, the Christians heeded the warning Jesus gave them, and fled to Pella. I thought Jerusalem was surrounded by General Titus, or is Cestius another name that he is known by? Anyway, the Christians went through 3 1/2 years of tribulation before leaving Jerusalem. Daniel 12 does speak of the tribulation that came upon Jerusalem in AD 66-70.
MB I was thinking on this passage:
2 Peter 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
Apparently we can "hasten" the coming of the Day of the Lord by looking for it.
Take the Lord's prayer "Thy Kingdom come" another way to hasten its coming
.I don't think some folks can put aside their theology book to believe this though
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