standingfirminChrist
New Member
In Abraham's day, God spoke either directly to someone, or He sent a prophet to speak to them
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Preaching tips that will change lives
- Thread starter gb93433
- Start date
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
This is what you originally posted. The added commentary at the bottom of this is not a part of that Ricks letters page. Everyone can clearly see that. Ok now I am done again.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/archives/2006/02/rick_warren_the.php
Rick Warren: There is Salvation Outside of Knowing Christ
Rick Warren believes that there is salvation today for those who have never heard of Jesus. This is from his Saddleback Family website. Read it carefully, both what it says and does not say. Here's an excerpt:
Question: What about people who live in a country where they have never heard about Jesus? Will they be able to get into heaven by some other way?
Answer: There is only one way to get into heaven, through what Jesus did on the cross for us. He paid the price for our sins on the cross, no one else could do that because He alone is God.
What about those who haven't heard about the cross?
They can be saved the same way that the people in the Old Testament were saved. The book of Romans tells us again and again that Abraham was saved the same way that we are, by his faith. Abraham didn't know the name of Jesus or that one day Jesus would die on the cross for his sins, but he trusted all that he knew about the God who had shown Himself to Abraham. Because of that trust, when Jesus died thousands of years after Abraham, the same forgiveness that was offered to us was given to Abraham.
God still reveals Himself to people who haven't heard the name of Jesus today. Romans 1:19-23;10:13-21 tells us that, even by nature itself, we can all clearly see who God really is. None of us can stand before God and say, I didn't understand." We all live as His creations in the world that He has made... the evidence of the love and grace of God are all around us! Let me be clear about what this means. A person who trusted in God without hearing the name of Jesus would be of the heart to immediately recognize that Jesus was the name of the one they believed in if they were ever to hear His name and story. They would know, just as Abraham would have known, that this is the truth about the God they have been following all of their lives. Someone who has begun to walk in the light is always able to recognize a brighter light.."
We can begin to "walk in the light" without the Light of the World? Where does the light come from, Rick, if our hearts are dark with sin as Romans 3:23 states?
With this theology, we have no need for missions or true evangelism at all. (And with Saddleback, of course, we get none.) As Christians we can spend our time like Bill and Melinda Gates--conducting purpose driven social work to cure the world's physical ills. After all, you can be saved without knowing about Christ or the cross, Warren says. This is rank apostasy.
What Rick is saying is that we are saved through what Jesus did on the cross for us, not believing in Christ and what He did on the cross for us. He says we can be saved even without knowing Jesus and his atoning work. He says that we can "trust God" without ever having heard of Christ and that when we finally hear of Christ, we'll then recognize Him and say, "ah, that was who I was trusting!" This is the underlying belief of interspiritualists like Dave Fleming who has taken Warren's beliefs a step farther and stated that all world religions are essentially the same, worshipping the same God, beneath the superficial differences. That, friends, is where Rick Warren is taking the church.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/archives/2006/02/rick_warren_the.php
Rick Warren: There is Salvation Outside of Knowing Christ
Rick Warren believes that there is salvation today for those who have never heard of Jesus. This is from his Saddleback Family website. Read it carefully, both what it says and does not say. Here's an excerpt:
Question: What about people who live in a country where they have never heard about Jesus? Will they be able to get into heaven by some other way?
Answer: There is only one way to get into heaven, through what Jesus did on the cross for us. He paid the price for our sins on the cross, no one else could do that because He alone is God.
What about those who haven't heard about the cross?
They can be saved the same way that the people in the Old Testament were saved. The book of Romans tells us again and again that Abraham was saved the same way that we are, by his faith. Abraham didn't know the name of Jesus or that one day Jesus would die on the cross for his sins, but he trusted all that he knew about the God who had shown Himself to Abraham. Because of that trust, when Jesus died thousands of years after Abraham, the same forgiveness that was offered to us was given to Abraham.
God still reveals Himself to people who haven't heard the name of Jesus today. Romans 1:19-23;10:13-21 tells us that, even by nature itself, we can all clearly see who God really is. None of us can stand before God and say, I didn't understand." We all live as His creations in the world that He has made... the evidence of the love and grace of God are all around us! Let me be clear about what this means. A person who trusted in God without hearing the name of Jesus would be of the heart to immediately recognize that Jesus was the name of the one they believed in if they were ever to hear His name and story. They would know, just as Abraham would have known, that this is the truth about the God they have been following all of their lives. Someone who has begun to walk in the light is always able to recognize a brighter light.."
We can begin to "walk in the light" without the Light of the World? Where does the light come from, Rick, if our hearts are dark with sin as Romans 3:23 states?
With this theology, we have no need for missions or true evangelism at all. (And with Saddleback, of course, we get none.) As Christians we can spend our time like Bill and Melinda Gates--conducting purpose driven social work to cure the world's physical ills. After all, you can be saved without knowing about Christ or the cross, Warren says. This is rank apostasy.
What Rick is saying is that we are saved through what Jesus did on the cross for us, not believing in Christ and what He did on the cross for us. He says we can be saved even without knowing Jesus and his atoning work. He says that we can "trust God" without ever having heard of Christ and that when we finally hear of Christ, we'll then recognize Him and say, "ah, that was who I was trusting!" This is the underlying belief of interspiritualists like Dave Fleming who has taken Warren's beliefs a step farther and stated that all world religions are essentially the same, worshipping the same God, beneath the superficial differences. That, friends, is where Rick Warren is taking the church.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
So it was not through the written word of God? Is that not a bit different from what you said here:
Joseph BotwinickHe reveals Himself through His Word. These rejected the Word given.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
NO, it is not different. Romans 1 is not about Abraham.
You must remember, Moses wrote Books of the Law. Following were
# The Books of History
# The Books of Poetry
# The Major Prophets
# The Minor Prophets
Today, we have the written word, The entire Bible which God reveals Himself to man through.
You must remember, Moses wrote Books of the Law. Following were
# The Books of History
# The Books of Poetry
# The Major Prophets
# The Minor Prophets
Today, we have the written word, The entire Bible which God reveals Himself to man through.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Ok...but Abraham and Moses did not have a written Word of God. Therefore, God revealed himself in other ways, such as through a burning bush, etc...
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
standingfirminChrist
New Member
yes, God revealed Himself in many ways, but mainly through certain persons in the OT. On occasion, through an angel, an ass, a burning bush, fire from heaven, a great fish, parting of the red sea, the cruise of oil, etc... many ways.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Sometimes through nature...correct?
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Psalms 19:1 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
have church services. will have to continue this discussion later.
SFIC,
I posted some points on this issue in another thread, but it might be more applicable here.
1. Rick is not saying there is salvation outside of Christ; saying that is a misrepresentation of his statements. He is saying that there are those that can be saved outside of having a literal Bible of church plant in their hands or areas. They can search and find without having knowledge to the same extent that you or I do. We are obviously held to a higher standard because of the knowledge we have been given.
2. We have missions because we do not know who or who won’t decide to search or look up without being prompted. There are many cultures that are so far down the wrong road that it is probable that most would never search for our God without being shown Him. Not to mention that we are commanded to have missions.
3. We never know how far Gods grace extends. Do you believe the mentally challenged will get to heaven? How about a child? I think most of us agree on this, but we condemn all civilizations that don’t have the literal gospel in their hands to hell.
I will also repost my direct response to these issues from the other thread, as these were not answered.
4. Many believe that you can be saved outside of having a literal Bible in your hands. They believe this for the same reasons that we believe babies don’t go to hell and mentally challenged folks don’t go to hell. Do you still preach the Gospel to these folks? Yes. This does not counteract missions because we have no capability to understand to what level of belief is necessary in order for one to be saved. We don’t know exactly how far Gods grace extends in terms of babies, mentally challenged, or third world citizens. All we can do is fulfill our responsibility to preach the Gospel. There are cases in which a culture is so far down a road they will never look up to search for our God. This is why missions are necessary, this does not negate the fact that someone who doesn’t have a translated Bible or a Church in their village cannot come to the knowledge of Christ. Hence the Holy Spirit. John 14:6 refers to Jesus’ position in the kingdom. Though his sacrificial atonement we can be saved, hence Him being the only way. We cannot enter Heaven without Christ, but that doesn’t mean his sacrifice is limited to those who can read a translated Bible. This grace can be sufficient for those who search and find, but may not have the capacity to understand to the extent you or I do.
God bless.
I posted some points on this issue in another thread, but it might be more applicable here.
1. Rick is not saying there is salvation outside of Christ; saying that is a misrepresentation of his statements. He is saying that there are those that can be saved outside of having a literal Bible of church plant in their hands or areas. They can search and find without having knowledge to the same extent that you or I do. We are obviously held to a higher standard because of the knowledge we have been given.
2. We have missions because we do not know who or who won’t decide to search or look up without being prompted. There are many cultures that are so far down the wrong road that it is probable that most would never search for our God without being shown Him. Not to mention that we are commanded to have missions.
3. We never know how far Gods grace extends. Do you believe the mentally challenged will get to heaven? How about a child? I think most of us agree on this, but we condemn all civilizations that don’t have the literal gospel in their hands to hell.
I will also repost my direct response to these issues from the other thread, as these were not answered.
4. Many believe that you can be saved outside of having a literal Bible in your hands. They believe this for the same reasons that we believe babies don’t go to hell and mentally challenged folks don’t go to hell. Do you still preach the Gospel to these folks? Yes. This does not counteract missions because we have no capability to understand to what level of belief is necessary in order for one to be saved. We don’t know exactly how far Gods grace extends in terms of babies, mentally challenged, or third world citizens. All we can do is fulfill our responsibility to preach the Gospel. There are cases in which a culture is so far down a road they will never look up to search for our God. This is why missions are necessary, this does not negate the fact that someone who doesn’t have a translated Bible or a Church in their village cannot come to the knowledge of Christ. Hence the Holy Spirit. John 14:6 refers to Jesus’ position in the kingdom. Though his sacrificial atonement we can be saved, hence Him being the only way. We cannot enter Heaven without Christ, but that doesn’t mean his sacrifice is limited to those who can read a translated Bible. This grace can be sufficient for those who search and find, but may not have the capacity to understand to the extent you or I do.
God bless.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Jesus commissioned us to preach the gospel, to witness to every creature. Before Christ's return, every man, woman and child must hear the gospel. Once they hear, they can choose to accept, or reject.
Babies are innocent because they are just that, babies.
But, once that baby is of the age where that baby knows the difference between right and wrong, that baby will be held accountable for sin.
Man is a totally different picture than babies. Romans 2 tells us 'Thou art inexcusable, O man'.
Man, no matter what age, what race, what location, is responsible for sin in his life. And every man will hear the gospel at one time or another.
Babies are innocent because they are just that, babies.
But, once that baby is of the age where that baby knows the difference between right and wrong, that baby will be held accountable for sin.
Man is a totally different picture than babies. Romans 2 tells us 'Thou art inexcusable, O man'.
Man, no matter what age, what race, what location, is responsible for sin in his life. And every man will hear the gospel at one time or another.
SFIC,Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Jesus commissioned us to preach the gospel, to witness to every creature. Before Christ's return, every man, woman and child must hear the gospel. Once they hear, they can choose to accept, or reject.
Babies are innocent because they are just that, babies.
But, once that baby is of the age where that baby knows the difference between right and wrong, that baby will be held accountable for sin.
Man is a totally different picture than babies. Romans 2 tells us 'Thou art inexcusable, O man'.
Man, no matter what age, what race, what location, is responsible for sin in his life. And every man will hear the gospel at one time or another.
Thanks for the response, but that doesn’t answer my points. You chose one point, but did not answer it fully. I said children, not infants. We know from David that babies will go to heaven. A child with the Bible is in less ignorance then a tribal African, thus not making him more accountable. Romans 2:1 says this “THEREFORE thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou ajudgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things”. This is obviously not referring to Gods judgment on the ignorant. You have set an arbitrary standard of “right and wrong” and you did not answer my thoughts completely. You are not obliged to do so, but it might be helpful to the conversation. God bless and I hope you enjoyed your church service tonight.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
how about this one? James 4 ... Therefore, to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Even those in the darkest jungles of africa know when they are doing good or bad. They know they are wrong in stealing, or they would not check around them to see that no one is looking. That is a natural reaction in any person. They know when they are doing wrong.
I have a friend who had a mentally challenged son. that son was 19 years old with the mind of a 6 year old when he died. Yet he knew when he was doing something wrong. He would hide behind the house when he was eating something he was not supposed to have. He would hide things under his pillow when you walked into the room. This young man knew he was doing wrong.
Once a child learns something is wrong, and continues doing that wrong, it is sin to him.
I have a friend who had a mentally challenged son. that son was 19 years old with the mind of a 6 year old when he died. Yet he knew when he was doing something wrong. He would hide behind the house when he was eating something he was not supposed to have. He would hide things under his pillow when you walked into the room. This young man knew he was doing wrong.
Once a child learns something is wrong, and continues doing that wrong, it is sin to him.
Thanks for the reply SFIC. I would like to give you a more in depth answer, but don't have much time left tonight. I will get back to you on this one. I will say one quick thought though. There is a difference between knowing right and wrong based on social mores and knowing something is actual sin. I don't believe that a 2 year old will go to hell although they do know right and wrong in some instances. God bless and I will get more in depth, hopefully I will have time tom. Thanks.Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
how about this one? James 4 ... Therefore, to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Even those in the darkest jungles of africa know when they are doing good or bad. They know they are wrong in stealing, or they would not check around them to see that no one is looking. That is a natural reaction in any person. They know when they are doing wrong.
I have a friend who had a mentally challenged son. that son was 19 years old with the mind of a 6 year old when he died. Yet he knew when he was doing something wrong. He would hide behind the house when he was eating something he was not supposed to have. He would hide things under his pillow when you walked into the room. This young man knew he was doing wrong.
Once a child learns something is wrong, and continues doing that wrong, it is sin to him.
SFC , Babies are not innocent . They are not blank slates . Consider Psalm 51:5 -- " I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin my mother conceived me . " And what about Psalm 58:3 ? -- " The wicked turn aside from birth ; liars go astray as soon as they are born . "
And please tell me where the Arminian doctrine of " the age of accountability " is located in the Bible .
And please tell me where the Arminian doctrine of " the age of accountability " is located in the Bible .
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Age of accountability is of no certain age. James says that the one who knows to to good and does it not sins. So, the age of accountability is as soon as one knows better.
As to Psalm 58:3, I believe David must have meant something different in that verse than what you are making it, because it is quite obvious that babies cannot speak the moment they are born; I have yet to see a day old baby telling a lie.
As to Psalm 58:3, I believe David must have meant something different in that verse than what you are making it, because it is quite obvious that babies cannot speak the moment they are born; I have yet to see a day old baby telling a lie.
Rippon--
When you were an infant, did you have knowledge of sin? We are not born sinless--we are born with the propensity to sin (with an Adamic sin nature). If you had died as an infant, would you have gone to hell? What about babies that are aborted? Get real--how can you say that an infant goes to hell if he/she dies in infancy? An infant is INNOCENT--meaning that an infant has no KNOWLEDGE of its sin nature until such a time that it is old enough to KNOW right from wrong/good from bad.
When you were an infant, did you have knowledge of sin? We are not born sinless--we are born with the propensity to sin (with an Adamic sin nature). If you had died as an infant, would you have gone to hell? What about babies that are aborted? Get real--how can you say that an infant goes to hell if he/she dies in infancy? An infant is INNOCENT--meaning that an infant has no KNOWLEDGE of its sin nature until such a time that it is old enough to KNOW right from wrong/good from bad.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Nor does just saying that one is God's elect make one saved. One must respond to the Spirit's drawing and call upon the name of the Lord. One can resist the drawing of the Holy Ghost, but that is dangerous. For God's heart will not always strive with man. Jesus said in John 3 that just as Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up. He went on to say, And I, if I be lifted up from this earth, I will draw 'all men' unto me. All Men... not just an elect few. He is drawing and wants all men everywhere to come to repentance. I am so glad His gift of Salvation is for all who will choose to call upon Him while He is nigh.
j_barner2000
Member
ok I will toss in.
1) I can link to any site from my site without being affiliated with it. you don't even have to have the permission of the other site's owner This is not a part of Rick Warren's nor his churches site.
2) if you look at these passages you will see that if you seek God, He will bless you by revealing Himself in a way as to lead you Himself. I chron 15:2; Jer 29:11-14
3) If you look at the Genesis account, you will find that Adam and Eve were not sinless, but not acountable for sin because they were innocent ( they had no knowledge of sin) until they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
From this you could draw a parallel that until you have a personal knowledge of your sin, you are held harmless.
disclaimer: I am not espousing this view particularly or discounting it, but I am wrestling with the armenian vs. calvinist debate. Both sides have persuasive points. I am firmly cal-menian at this point.
1) I can link to any site from my site without being affiliated with it. you don't even have to have the permission of the other site's owner This is not a part of Rick Warren's nor his churches site.
2) if you look at these passages you will see that if you seek God, He will bless you by revealing Himself in a way as to lead you Himself. I chron 15:2; Jer 29:11-14
3) If you look at the Genesis account, you will find that Adam and Eve were not sinless, but not acountable for sin because they were innocent ( they had no knowledge of sin) until they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
From this you could draw a parallel that until you have a personal knowledge of your sin, you are held harmless.
disclaimer: I am not espousing this view particularly or discounting it, but I am wrestling with the armenian vs. calvinist debate. Both sides have persuasive points. I am firmly cal-menian at this point.