Preceding Grace & Divine Providence - the Truth, “within a hairs breadth of Calvinism

[Iconoclast]

Icon, you call that meaningless rhetoric and a couple of Archie Bunker scriptural interpretations a response to my argument??? I’m sorry, but you seem confused and don’t seem to be following along too well…I’ve explained these things already in details that you have ignored.

Now, you ever want to address this carnal reasoning of yours about those philosophical terms “self will” and “Free Moral Agency”: :thumbs:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2002025&postcount=13

Opps.....you missed that it is a biblical term my friend.....:laugh:let me help you once again.....

10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

You nevertheless have avoided a response to my post....I understand....you cannot do what you cannot do...lol.... standby, I will skim over your posts and quilt together "meaningless rhetoric"...

 

[Benjamin]

Opps.....you missed that it is a biblical term my friend"...

Oops, you missed that you are attempting to define that term, didn't you?...


Now, you ever want to address this carnal reasoning of yours about those philosophical terms “self will” and “Free Moral Agency”: :thumbs:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2002025&postcount=13

 

[Iconoclast]

Oops, you missed that you are attempting to define that term, didn't you?...

Nope...that has already been done ,[vines bible dictionary]
it is very clear....you will see it and are quite familiar with it.....

Topic: Self-willed
<1,,829,authades>
"self-pleasing" (autos, "self," hedomai, "to please"), denotes one who, dominated by self-interest, and inconsiderate of others, arrogantly asserts his own will, "self-willed," Titus 1:7; 2 Pet. 2:10 (the opposite of epieikes, "gentle," e.g., 1 Tim. 3:3), "one so far overvaluing any determination at which he has himself once arrived that he will not be removed from it" (Trench, who compares and contrasts philautos, "loving self, selfish;" Syn. xciii). In the Sept., Gen. 49:3,7; Prov. 21:24.

self-willed....like those who oppose God's grace:thumbs::wavey:

Like when you insist on using a fatalistic term to describe Grace.

You do not answer my posts, or agedmans...or anyone who wades through your jargon and finds little scripture of any consequence as has been demonstrated.:thumbs:

 

[Benjamin]

My argument:

Another typical poor example of trying to proof-text in the Determinist view that disregards that those chosen were chosen “in" the Lord Christ, -our Mediator is plainly in view, but you attempt to reduce the Mediator from a Righteous Judge to a preprogrammed puppet to serve your Determinist doctrines.

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist shamefully attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology. To ignore or change the inspired order is false doctrine.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ah, more of those pesky “you”. But that is how “responsibility” logically falls on the “you” in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design to act a certain way before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions??? Care to explain “your” logic?

One need only honestly work through the text without his Determinist glasses to see the order of salvation.

First, we must hear the gospel (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Luke 24:47; John 20:21; Acts 1:8; Romans 10:14-17).

Secondly, we must believe in Jesus (John 3:16; 6:29; 20:31; Acts 16:30-31; Romans 10:9-10).

Thirdly, at this point we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit or born again (John 3:3-7; Romans 3:21-26; 4:24-5:1; 8:9, 15; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Galatians 3:13-14).

Rom 3:21-27 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13 is:

Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

The Determinist way is to attempt to change the Biblical order and would have to put regeneration before faith for salvation. Such a view is entirely backwards and contrary to God’s judgment which is His way in truth! (Deut 32:4)

Icon's reply, which he calls an ethical argument in a debate:

Every believer comes through faith. It is never said to be because of faith however....(HUH?! What kind of carnal philosophy is that?!)

We do nothing until the Spirit regenerates us…(Backwards forced interpretation/carnal reasoning/false doctrine – already made this clear, you seem to be having difficulty following that argument. Your reply: “verses 3-11 already explained it...but you reject it....that is on you” - is not addressing my argument which rebutted it with meaningful reasoning in any honest sense.)

Yet Icon says:
You do not answer my posts...

Icon only wants scriptures, let's watch Icon dance and give some carnal reasoning about how they don't say what they say:

 

[Benjamin]

AS per the Divine order already addressed, Eph 1:13, which you attempt change - Faith clearly precedes regeneration:

Mar 16:15-16
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Joh 1:12
(12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:36
(36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 5:39-40
(39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(40) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Joh 6:51
(51) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 6:53-54, 57
(53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
(54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(57) As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 11:25
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 20:31
(31) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 13:38-39
(38) Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
(39) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Act 16:31
(31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 1:16
(16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:9-10
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1Co 1:21
(21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Heb 11:6
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Again, what does the scriptures say about WHEN the Holy Spirit quickens the spiritually dead? Before or after they believe???
Joh 7:38-39
(38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Act 2:38
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gal 3:13-14
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 4:6
(6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Eph 1:13-14
(13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Benjamin]

Icon says:
You and your anti-cal posse as usual deny the reality of the Fall into Sin ans death.Adam was not slightly wounded but dead indeed at the fall.
Icon's proof-text:

No man seeks god as a consequence...No man, Not one....

You don’t interpret the scriptures very well, do you??? Rhetorical question, - means this is evident. You act as if God was just pulling our legs with all the scriptures in which He “commanded” us to seek Him…Why don’t you explain how that verse means what you say it does (as per your philosophical position on Total Inability pertaining to the doctrines of Determinism) in light of the below scriptures, you seem very confused about that single typical Calvie proof-text you just offered to support your Determinist view, explain these:
Instruction from God to seek the Lord:

(Deu 4:29) But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

(1Ch 16:11) Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

(1Ch 16:12) Remember his marvelous works that he hath done, his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth;

(1Ch 22:19) Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the LORD.

(1Ch 28:9) And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off forever.

(2Ch 11:16) And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

(2Ch 12:14) And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.


(2Ch 15:2) And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

(2Ch 15:12) And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

(2Ch 15:13) That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

(2Ch 30:18) For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one

(2Ch 30:19) That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.

(Ezr 7:10) For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.

(Psa 14:2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

(Psa 22:26) The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live forever.

(Psa 27:4) One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

(Psa 27:8) When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

(Psa 34:10) The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.

(Psa 40:16) Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified.

(Psa 69:6) Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel.

(Psa 83:16) Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.

(Psa 105:3) Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.

(Psa 105:4) Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

(Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.


(Isa 55:6) Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

(Hos 10:12) Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

(Amo 5:4) For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

(Amo 5:6) Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.

(Amo 5:14) Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.


(Zep 2:3) Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.


(Act 15:17) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

(Act 17:27) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

[Benjamin]

Free will seeking:


(Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

(Psa 14:2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

2Ch 15:2) And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

(2Ch 15:12) And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

(2Ch 15:13) That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

(2Ch 30:18) For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one

(2Ch 30:19) That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.

(Ezr 7:10) For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.

 

[Benjamin]

Oops, you missed that you are attempting to define that term, didn't you?...

Nope...that has already been done ,[vines bible dictionary]
it is very clear....you will see it and are quite familiar with it.....

Topic: Self-willed
<1,,829,authades>
"self-pleasing" (autos, "self," hedomai, "to please"), denotes one who, dominated by self-interest, and inconsiderate of others, arrogantly asserts his own will, "self-willed," Titus 1:7; 2 Pet. 2:10 (the opposite of epieikes, "gentle," e.g., 1 Tim. 3:3), "one so far overvaluing any determination at which he has himself once arrived that he will not be removed from it" (Trench, who compares and contrasts philautos, "loving self, selfish;" Syn. xciii). In the Sept., Gen. 49:3,7; Prov. 21:24.

self-willed....like those who oppose God's grace:thumbs::wavey:

Like when you insist on using a fatalistic term to describe Grace.

You do not answer my posts, or agedmans...or anyone who wades through your jargon and finds little scripture of any consequence as has been demonstrated.:thumbs:

Sounds like a definition of volition rather than determinism to me.

Now, why don't you "man up" Icon and address your carnal reasoning (YOUR DEFINITION) which YOU haven't answered (IN THE OTHER THREAD, WHERE THIS ARGUMENT BELONGS, THAT IS STILL THERE WAITING) about "self will" that you defined like this:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

I am one who denies "free will exists".Man does have a will ...self will...however it is bound by his nature...

Choice is choice....it has nothing to do with the condition of the will....

 

[convicted1]

Brother Benjamin, I agree wholeheartedly with what you posted here:

Hear the Gospel----> Believe the Gospel-----> Be sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I will amen that all day, every day, and thrice on sundays. TBS, to truly "hear" the gospel of your's, mine, John's, Jack's, Jill's, Herald's, Anthony's, and whomever else, the inner man needs to be "in tune" with the message. How does someone get "in tune" with the message? It's by faith that we are able to receive anything from God. Faith comes from God, seeing that He is the Author and Finisher of it(Heb. 12:2), that He gives the measure of faith(Rom. 12:3), that He, the Almighty, gives understanding unto our soul(Job 32:8), and so on.

Man does not have the "faculties" to believe.....i.e......have faith, in and of himself. It this rang true, then man has justified himself, seeing that God has chosen to justify the heathen by faith.

So what you really have in the salvation of man is santification, repentance, justification, salvation, and finally glorification, and all of this is by the hand of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,

First i want to thank you for offering the fine list of verses in posts 65,66,67...

They are wonderful verses all pointing to the duty of all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel, seeking God's face in prayer, and serving Him all the days of our lives.

All Christians can find agreement in these verses as Willis has pointed out.

Thanks again for offering such a nice list of verses.This is progress!

Now...let me see if your "comments" have anything we can also agree on.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin

My argument:

Another typical poor example of trying to proof-text in the Determinist view

OR...it is just a scriptural interaction that you cannot respond to, so you call names and write it off as "proof texting". Lets see.....

that disregards that those chosen were chosen “in" the Lord Christ, -our Mediator is plainly in view,

The whole basis of any form of reformed theology,and any other biblical theology is how in scripture we have a revelation of the Covenant of Redemption. The Father giving a multitude of persons to the Son as Mediator of the Covenant. There is never a time where the elect sinners, were not viewed as IN THE ELECT SERVANT.

In a recent thread I added in the FACT of Jesus being Eternal High Priest and Surety of the Covenant
This three fold cord will not be broken.No one attempted to refute it as it cannot be done. To even suggest that Reformed persons were somehow not seeing this is laughable!

but you attempt to reduce the Mediator from a Righteous Judge to a preprogrammed puppet to serve your Determinist doctrines.

This is just profane no matter how you view it. Try not to post like this...no matter what you profess to believe as this is a violation of the first and second commandment.

You posted late at night,perhaps your thoughts were not so crisp at that hour?

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist shamefully attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology. To ignore or change the inspired order is false doctrine.

What determinists do or do not do...I know not. They are fatalists and yet you resort to this rhetoric as a default position. Now lets examine the text and a bit of the context...

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ah, more of those pesky “you”. But that is how “responsibility” logically falls on the “you”

I have no disagreement with this verse at all.This is a great verse.What I notice is this.....Cal's seek to understand all the verses , noncals often like half of the verses...I will show you from the list you yourself offered.

First I notice that several times you focus on "ye' or "you" as you are concerned about human responsibility...that is Good:wavey:

Now using that same focus...let me highlight other pronouns for you that speak to the issue in question....

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


NOTICE....all of these pronouns describing God's work, precede those you highlight in verse 13......they all happened first,resulting in the human response in verse 13...which was only by Divine enablement to begin with.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design to act a certain way before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions??? Care to explain “your” logic?

A Calvinist believes Romans 5 that says all died in Adam. They also believe the scriptures that say that no one seeks God, no not one.
So they are very happy to believe that Jesus seeks and saves ALL HIS SHEEP. They believe in the Accomplished work of redemption.
If God left man to himself all would perish.
So like Paul in Eph.1;1-14.....we bless God for his electing love.

That is my explanation..We should bless God for His grace and mercy in electing love. I do not see it so much as logic ...as I see it described as our reasonable service of worship;

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The Determinist way is to attempt to change the Biblical order and would have to put regeneration before faith for salvation. Such a view is entirely backwards and contrary to God’s judgment which is His way in truth! (Deut 32:4)

Deut.32:4 has nothing to do with this discussion...you are misusing the verse....Deut 32 is part of the song of moses speaking about the righteous judgement of God upon apostate Israel.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?


28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Icon's reply, which he calls an ethical argument in a debate:

Every believer comes through faith. It is never said to be because of faith however....(HUH?! What kind of carnal philosophy is that?!)

Carnal philosophy???? NO...sorry my friend.It comes directly from scripture.
The text of scripture always says by or through faith....NEVER BECAUSE OF FAITH.....look it up.....

more later...got to go

 

[Benjamin]

I would say this faith is activated through God's Providential revealing of the truth while He righteously judges the responses we have to that revelation in an ongoing manner so that none will an excuse not to respond to the truth, and seek more of it.

This said, (I just a lost a very long post about this, but in short) once again, I have no intensions of chasing your entire system down while you ignore coming to any conclusions because of clouding every subject. You may like that I posted many scriptures, and did include addressing more than one subject, but you continue to ignore the purpose of my doing so.

I call your focus back to "seeking" and your 1 proof-text on the subject of "seeking" which you want to go into arguing about Total Inability and never-ending proof-texting on this, but THIS ONE SUBJECT is about "seeking" and I have given multiple scriptures to refute your common proof-text to support the Determinist philosophical position of Total inability. Your claim that your interpretation is correct on that verse does not stand because there are many verses that show that we indeed do seek God in truth as He has instructed us to do in truth. You would have to make God into a liar to say that we have no ability to seek Him! On what basis other than your presumption od total inability on that one verse do you not see the ALL the other scriptures on seeking I presented refuting your interpretation on that lone verse?

 

[Benjamin]

NOTICE....all of these pronouns describing God's work, precede those you highlight in verse 13......they all happened first,resulting in the human response in verse 13...which was only by Divine enablement to begin with.

All I observe is that you must be seeing these verses through Deterministic glasses while philosophizing that the pronouns somehow disregard the CLEAR Divine Order given in verse 13 which concludes the matter of the preceding verses. I also have supported the inspired order with multiple scriptures that continue to demonstrate it , yet you still attempt change that Biblical order by some twisted carnal reasoning about pronouns to support your false doctrines. You attempt to put regeneration before faith but your "carnal reasoning" by pronouns fails in light of the scriptures which maintain that order. Maybe you missed these scriptures?:wavey:

AS per the Divine order already addressed, Eph 1:13, which you attempt change - Faith clearly precedes regeneration:

Mar 16:15-16
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Joh 1:12
(12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:36
(36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 5:39-40
(39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(40) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Joh 6:51
(51) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 6:53-54, 57
(53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
(54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(57) As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 11:25
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 20:31
(31) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 13:38-39
(38) Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
(39) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Act 16:31
(31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 1:16
(16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:9-10
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1Co 1:21
(21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Heb 11:6
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Again, what does the scriptures say about WHEN the Holy Spirit quickens the spiritually dead? Before or after they believe???
Joh 7:38-39
(38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Act 2:38
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gal 3:13-14
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 4:6
(6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Eph 1:13-14
(13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Benjamin]

Brother Benjamin, I agree wholeheartedly with what you posted here:

Hear the Gospel----> Believe the Gospel-----> Be sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I will amen that all day, every day, and thrice on sundays. TBS, to truly "hear" the gospel of your's, mine, John's, Jack's, Jill's, Herald's, Anthony's, and whomever else, the inner man needs to be "in tune" with the message. How does someone get "in tune" with the message? It's by faith that we are able to receive anything from God. Faith comes from God, seeing that He is the Author and Finisher of it(Heb. 12:2), that He gives the measure of faith(Rom. 12:3), that He, the Almighty, gives understanding unto our soul(Job 32:8), and so on.

Man does not have the "faculties" to believe.....i.e......have faith, in and of himself. It this rang true, then man has justified himself, seeing that God has chosen to justify the heathen by faith.

So what you really have in the salvation of man is santification, repentance, justification, salvation, and finally glorification, and all of this is by the hand of God.

Wow! I lost a long post to Icon because of logging out and now another timely post regarding Icon's idea of agreement and how far our agreement might reach, or not, concerning faith, but this post has vanished after being published, I even took this small clip from it before it did:

I would say this faith is activated through God's Providential revealing of the truth while He righteously judges the responses we have to that revelation in an ongoing manner so that none will an excuse not to respond to the truth, and seek more of it.

Well, hope you might have caught it...

So weird! I've looked everywhere, I don't ever remember a post vanishing on me like that after being published!!!

Ugh! I'd really like to have that one back, I was in a moment, it was drawing the discussion back on topic, and now the moment is gone..
:tonofbricks:

 

[Benjamin]

By the way, lest I let this Archie Bunker interpretation and attempt to twist the meaning of the scriptures to pass:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast:
Deut.32:4 has nothing to do with this discussion...you are misusing the verse....Deut 32 is part of the song of moses speaking about the righteous judgement of God upon apostate Israel.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

There you go again philosophizing with carnal reasoning to and attempting to twist the clear meaning of scripture! The Word says, “all His way are judgment” and you attempt to turn God's true ways of judgment onto only a select few, how typical!

Pertaining to the Rock of Truth a believer should be standing on you say this truth is for a select few!

Pertaining to God ‘s perfect work and all His ways being judgment the verse says He is, “a God of Truth” and you say this these ways and this judgment is a lie!

The verse say God is, “without inequity” (moral evil) but your Determinist’ systems’ clear logical end result is to conclude God “decreed” evil.

The verse says, “Just and Right is He”, but you attempt to say this only pertains to being just and right pertaining to ONLY “apostate Israel”? These carnal interpretational thoughts of twisting the meaning of scriptures are SICK and come from a sick mind that is obsessed with Determinism.

You then highlight this verse as if you might see Determinism in it:

28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

This verse is referring to these people not recognizing that God’s work is perfect, because all His ways are judgment, that He is a God of Truth and without inequity (moral evil) and that in His True judgment He is Just and Right – this verse is referring to people just like you, people that have fallen away from the clear truths in scripture, that are void of proper counsel and understanding of our God’s true nature and true ways of judgment!

Once again, we have seen yet another example of the Determinist "merely" attempting to tear down the attributes of God to fit their system.

OH! Deut 32;4 has everything to do with explaining God’s True Nature and True ways of judgment in Salvation as we discuss the Divine order upon which His judgment is based. This is the Rock a believer is to stand on which you would be wise not to ignore, while you twist the scriptures to push false manmade doctrines about God being a Pre-Deterministic Sovereign God, while making claims of yourself having to be forced to believe (inability) through predestination and attempt to void His all His ways of judgment in the matter to conform to your ways of resenting to have to genuinely believe from your own heart, which clearly comes before any regeneration!

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin

All I observe is that you must be seeing these verses through Deterministic glasses while philosophizing that the pronouns somehow disregard the CLEAR Divine Order given in verse 13 which concludes the matter of the preceding verses

.

That is why you will not come to truth on this at all.For you to say that verses 3-11 have nothing to do with the text and the order of salvation just shows your total lack of being able to follow the scriptural text at all.

I also have supported the inspired order with multiple scriptures that continue to demonstrate it

,

Your offering multiple texts that speak of believing does not address the ordo salutis....most of your "texts" leave out the Divine explanation for example;

You quote Jn 1:12,and leave out verse 13
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You quote from Acts 13....and leave out vs 48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

So you try and cut-off eph 1:3-11 from the verses you mention.You are not serious about coming to truth , but rather to promote your agenda.

yet you still attempt change that Biblical order by some twisted carnal reasoning about pronouns to support your false doctrines.

You introduced the "you" into the discussion. I just followed through and directly posted scripture.....NO CARNAL REASONING whatsoever....but you try and say it is so....very sad.

Earlier you wondered why Willis seemed to speak to both sides of the fence?
hint-
because he sees clearly that Both issues are addressed. And is honest enough to call you and others when they try and pull the wool over someones eyes. Your denials of scripture are getting more and more bizarre.

You attempt to put regeneration before faith

Scripture determines this....not human reasoning, but Divine revelation.

but your "carnal reasoning" by pronouns fails in light of the scriptures which maintain that order.

As previously posted...I just highlighted scripture itself which you are evidently not allowed to receive. No wonder we cannot come to agreement.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin

This said, (I just a lost a very long post about this, but in short) once again, I have no intensions of chasing your entire system down while you ignore coming to any conclusions because of clouding every subject.

offering scriptural correction ...you refer to clouding every subject.:laugh:

You may like that I posted many scriptures, and did include addressing more than one subject, but you continue to ignore the purpose of my doing so.

I did not ignore your purpose.But for someone who speaks much of logic, there is a clear disconnect with what you offer with your stated goal.

I call your focus back to "seeking" and your 1 proof-text on the subject of "seeking" which you want to go into arguing about Total Inability and never-ending proof-texting on this,

You quote psalm 14:2....but not verse 3 which answers your point...
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I suppose according to you Paul was "proof texting " in Romans 3 when he quotes this:laugh:

but THIS ONE SUBJECT is about "seeking" and I have given multiple scriptures to refute your common proof-text to support the Determinist philosophical position of Total inability.

Again your list of verses is speaking about believers seeking God in prayer,

Your claim that your interpretation is correct on that verse does not stand because there are many verses that show that we indeed do seek God in truth as He has instructed us to do in truth. You would have to make God into a liar to say that we have no ability to seek Him! On what basis other than your presumption od total inability on that one verse do you not see the ALL the other scriptures on seeking I presented refuting your interpretation on that lone verse?

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Winman]

Cornelius and the Philipian jailer both prove man can seek God. Neither man was saved and yet they both sought God.

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Corneilus was not saved when the angel spoke to him, because the angel told him to send for Peter whereby he would hear words and be saved. Cornelius was not regenerated when the angel spoke to him, as the Holy Ghost had not fallen on him yet, but he obeyed the angel and sent for Peter.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The Philipian jailer was not regenerated when he desired to be saved, as he had not yet believed. Yet he realized he was a lost sinner who needed salvation.

Both of these men show that a lost person can seek God. Were they influenced first by God to do so? Of course, no man can believe on him of whom they have not heard (Rom 10:14), but once a man hears of God he is enabled to seek him (Jhn 6:44-45).

 

[Benjamin]

I call your focus back to "seeking" and your 1 proof-text on the subject of "seeking" which you want to go into arguing about Total Inability and never-ending proof-texting on this, but THIS ONE SUBJECT is about "seeking" and I have given multiple scriptures to refute your common proof-text to support the Determinist philosophical position of Total inability. Your claim that your interpretation is correct on that verse does not stand because there are many verses that show that we indeed do seek God in truth as He has instructed us to do in truth. You would have to make God into a liar to say that we have no ability to seek Him! On what basis other than your presumption od total inability on that one verse do you not see the ALL the other scriptures on seeking I presented refuting your interpretation on that lone verse?

Icon's sole reply to the above argument before attempting the typical disingenuous smokescreen tactic of beginning to proof-text Total Inability to avoid the subject:

Again your list of verses is speaking about believers seeking God in prayer,

You might want to check those verses again, clearly not all are believers, the “elect of Israel” freely could have gone either way, many that are being spoken to were obviously not spiritually alive because of a lack of faith from their own hearts, and also those verses do indeed demonstrate that man is instructed to seek after God by the means available to them (volition). Sadly, we witness yet another attack on God’s attributes as you make Him out to be some kind of double-talker for the glory of the Determinist system’s ways.

Other than that, as I've already explained and now pinned to you to demonstrate your typical lack of integrity in debate, I’m not chasing after your smokescreen attempts to divert back to beginning to proof-texting total inability throughout the Bible, my point about your interpretation of the inability to “seek” after God not lining up to all other scriptures on the real ability to seek God stands.

You waste my time with your desperate attempts to skate by the truth on this matter…

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

I just highlighted scripture itself which you are evidently not allowed to receive.

Scripture determines this....not human reasoning, but Divine revelation.

This is a cult teaching. This statement reveals your mindset and shows you not only deny having a mind of your own to reason with but demonstrates your belief that you have received Divine revelation in your ability to determine the meaning of scriptures.

You just ruined any credibility that you are rationally minded when you are reasoning to interpret the scriptures. – not that I didn’t already know that you presumed yourself to be of higher authority in these matters, but thanks for the direct conformation that when your reasoning begins to fail you will resort to the cultic claim of having special insight, once again.

I have no more time to waste on such a mentality as yours...