Predestinated = OSAS

Well it wasn't my quote but I will give two cents anyways. What if I bear good fruit for ten years and then stop? Am I then lost the day I stop? What if I start again, or would that be impossible because that would be like being born-again-again? What if I bear fruit for say sixty years and then stop, and two days later die, will I then be sent to hell? Just how does a believer apply this to real life in your views? I know there are many days I fail to bear fruit. Am I lost those days? </font>[/QUOTE]Bearing fruit has to do with the state of the heart. When one is humbled, committed to the Lord they remain in the Vine. Fruit is exhibited by lifestyle and intent of the heart because the Holy Spirit is allowed to lead one's life fully, even when you have bad days it's the state of the heart.

When the desire to please God and love Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength is not foremost, the fruit will shrivel and die.

 

Stever,

Good post because you explained the truth.

I lived in Martinsburg maybe twenty miles from Altoona years ago.

 

steaver,

Anywhere near Holtwood? I lived in Holtwood back in 73

 

Stevers,

You have never addressed the example I gave about my friend who now worships Tao. There ARE those who will believe and fall away. It is written. There are those who are destined from the foundation of the world to believe and remain faithful to the end.

Judas would be a good example of falling away - even those he was destined to be lost. He believed at first, but he was expecting Jesus to be a reigning conquering King that would overthrow the Romans. When he finally realized that Jesus was not here for that, satan entered his heart and he betrayed Him. That is also loss of salvation.

The parable of the Sower and the Vine passage, both refer to those who have believed and fell away or were cut off.

Some believers fall away because they have been given the opportunity to believe, but walked away and at judgment they will have no excuse.

Peter is simply saying - stay on the path, stay seeking God, because there are some who will fall away because their hearts grew cold towards God. It is a warning to fear God. Paul also warned of this. We are grafted in and can be cut off. Jesus said this to John - that one can be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Yes, salvation is secure for those who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. It is a heart matter, which I have stated over an over again. But not every believer is "sold out" to God and they will and do drift away. I know of many, many people who have let their lives as believers grow into apathy and lethargy, allowing the cares and concerns of the this world draw them away.

I have also seen riches pull people down - just as Jesus said - it is harder for the rich to get into heaven than for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle. I believe that He was speaking of believers as well.

Even in Paul's ministry he speaks of those who fell away into deception and ship wrecked their faith, and those who were drawn away by seducing spirits.

There are also many verses and passages in the NT alone that speak of false teachers and prophets leading people astray. This means they will be lost. As Jesus said - they will prophesy in My Name and do other miracles and He will say, get away from Me, I know you not.

Loss of salvation is a message that is part of the Bible from Gen to Rev - many fell away because of unbelief.

 

There are 4 classes of believers per the Parable of the Sower - that is why you cannot see where I am coming from. there are some who will believe and fall away, there are some who are destined to remain faithful - the passages you quoted are for these believers - the ones bringing forth 30, 60, and a 100 fold. it is not a matter of favoritism, it is a matter of having no excuse.

 

stever wrote:
I see an example of a religious man who never received the Spirit of Christ. There are thousands of these sitting in churches across America and the World.

eloidalmanutha:
sorry, I missed what you said from "saved, lost, saved" thread.

How can you judge him on one paragraph, when I spent months talking to him? I know he loved the Lord, his words, his expressions were of pure devotion and joy. We spent hours talking about the Lord and the Word.

But he started to question the Deity of Christ because of his associations with a religious group that slowly planted seeds of doubt and were watered by that continual influence - as proverbs says - bad company corrupts. that is when he snowballed right into deception and fell away. He has rebuked the Lord and cast Him aside. He will never come back - he lost his salvation. Tao is his god.

 

let me reiterate one more time - salvation is a free gift - of the faith and grace of God - no one can get saved by doing any works, paying money, being good, nothing. The gift is free.

Acceptance of the gift then becomes the will of man - to seek, to love, to submit. that is the choice. if you choose not to, you will be lost. If you choose to give your will and your life to God, you will remain saved. it is a matter of the heart. This is why Jesus said that some branches will wither and be cut off - they were IN Him, but chose not to abide in Him.

 

when someone believes on Jesus for salvation - they are instantly born of Spirit and Water - or born again/regenerated. the process of salvation does not end at that moment - it continues until one dies. that is the point that man is led by the Spirit to continue to strive to seek and love God.

one can harden their heart against the Holy Spirit - their conscience being seared - no longer contending for the faith.

there is a sin in which there is no forgiveness - blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. if my friend has denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, he has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:2,3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


Let me ask you exactly when you think a person is regenerated? a minute after belief? 10 min? an hr? a day? a year? 10 years? how do you know when a person has been regenerated enough to be saved?

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

The verses that you keep quoting are for those who were predestined to become believers and will not lose their salvation.

There are believers who will fall away - that have been regenerated and born again. As Jesus said, they believed and then fell away - see above verse - 1 John 5:1

 

I agree that Calvinists are the only ones with a theological basis for OSAS.

I would claim that 4 Point Calvinists are the ONLY ones that have a basis for BOTH OSAS AND assurance.

But of course - OSAS is error. The Matt 18 discussion on "forgiveness revoked" shows that beyond a doubt!

 

Ezekiel 3:20-21 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 18:26-28 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die ...


(the other) Ray

 

You just cannot seem to grasp the trem "born". One does not keep on being born in the flesh (by water) each day of their lives. It is an EVENT, in an instant, and finished...on to maturity. Just the same when one is born of God, it is an EVENT, in an instant. One does not continue daily to be regenerated. </font>[/QUOTE]uhhh ......... that's exactly what I said. We are regenerated the instant we believe. The process of salvation is a lifetime of seeking God, salvation does not end when you believe - God continues the work in us until we are completed. We are renewed and transformed by a process in which we are submitted to the Holy Spirit for chastening, discipline and correction.

Perhaps our definition of salvation is what is tripping up this dialogue. Salvation, as defined in the Greek:

soteria #4991
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
1) of Messianic salvation
2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

Heb 12:6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

1John 5:1 says they have been regenerated and then fell away </font>[/QUOTE]cute, steavers - you do keep me busy

believers have been regenerated/born again are so instantly at the time of belief. They are full believers in Christ - per 1 John 5:1. they can fall away after this point. The parable of the Sower, and the Vine - the fruit whithered. Fruit cannot grow if it's not in the Vine to begin with.

Let me ask you what you think Jesus meant when He said that those who don't bear fruit will be cut off, thrown into the fire and burned?

 

yes, stevers, I believe that I will not lose my salvation. I am secure, bought and paid for

what is the point to your question?